Well, as you might have gathered, I am a vegetarian :0)
For the record, in my daily life, I avoid even speaking of my vegetarianism. Actually, it has been a relief to be in Asheville, where the diet and the lifestyle are fairly normal and people don’t get all bent out of shape upon realizing I choose to not eat meat, eggs, or dairy products. In my social circle, my husband, son, dog, and I are the only vegetarians. But this doesn’t seem to bother my friends at all. I feel really happy that I have more friends than I can count on both hands (from all walks of life)- and the subject has never come up. It really hasn’t. I imagine they simply respect it, just as I quietly respect and accept that they are gay, environmentally “active”, politically active, nerdy, quirky, active in human rights, etc.
Is it “dangerous” or “delusional”- I don’t think so. Why would it be?
What has proven dangerous is the mass public blatantly ignoring issues that directly impact the environment that must sustain us because they don’t want to be bothered by them.
Ignorance is bliss, right?
Is environmentalism dangerous or delusional?
I really don’t get why people are so offended by others who wish to live a life as free of causing suffering as possible. The whole mentality of “OH- everything is just great- we don’t need to change a thing!” is, in my opinion, delusional.
I don’t think it’s a matter of being ignorant. In fact, when America was more rural, I think people were far more aware of what went into eating meat — far more educated — and they did it just the same. They would slaughter animals that they had raised from birth, animals with names and familiar personalities, because that’s what it took to stay alive. Likewise, people today know that it’s a bloody, painful mess to get meat from, say, a cow. They may not know what it’s like to butcher one firsthand, but they probably have a pretty good idea what goes into it.
There’s probably a degree of willful ignorance at work, too. Butchering is a bloody, fairly unpleasant task when you get down to it. (Although the end result is worth it, I’d argue.)
That said, even though I disagree with the many parts of the message activist groups like PETA put out, most of their actions and antics seem more like cheap theater than anything truly dangerous. It’s a free country, and people are entitled to their views, but when it crosses the line into criminal behavior (spray-painting fur coats comes to mind) I’m not much inclined to listen. It can be dangerous in a sense, but until they start their bombing campaign at meat-packing plants, I’m more inclined to think of them as annoying.
Delusional? I’m not sure I’d even go that far, at least on the whole. They’re like any other fundamentalist group, as far as I can see. Are Baptists delusional because they want to save your soul and prevent sinful, sinful acts of dancing? I’d put them well below, say, the militant anti-abortion activists.
Well, there were some folks who thought mass-murdering (how many) jews based on the belief of some that they were vermin was wrong and kicked some seroius ass to liberate them (thank goodness).
There were also an annoying few who thought keeping africans (also at one point considered lesser beings) as slaves wasn’t cool- and we all know the ruckus they brought on by supporting them in their fight to freedom (some didn’t even want to be free and fought against those trying to liberate them). Some folks thought it was worth it to keep slaves, even if they felt badly for them. Oh heavens…who else would work the fields in the hot summer?
If you discover that another being, whom you consider equally deserving of respect for their life as yourself, being brutalized by others, should you ignore their plight out of respect for the brutalizers “freedom of choice” or to avoid “annoying” them, or should you try to help?
BTW, Steve- can I consider your lack of rebuttal to my arguments on the Vegetarianism IS a religion board a concession?
I thought you were still responding to my earlier post (“more to come” or something). I was waiting until you made all your points before I responded. Maybe you did, and I didn’t see it. It’s busy here today, and I may have overlooked the thread.
That said, there’s not really anything to concede. We’re just rehashing the same stuff at this point, aren’t we? The disagreement is based on relative morals, not anything objective, and we can argue for years without there will ever be a resolution or an objective “winner.”
Frankly, as far as I’m concerned, I “won” the argument the moment you said your vegetarianism was completely moral in nature, which basically resolved the question the thread was asking as far as you are concerned. The rest is just trying to keep the pot stirred and trying to be a good sport.
Well, there were some folks who thought mass-murdering (how many) jews based on the belief of some that they were vermin was wrong and kicked some seroius ass to liberate them (thank goodness).
There were also an annoying few who thought keeping africans (also at one point considered lesser beings) as slaves wasn’t cool- and we all know the ruckus they brought on by supporting them in their fight to freedom (some didn’t even want to be free and fought against those trying to liberate them). Some folks thought it was worth it to keep slaves, even if they felt badly for them. Oh heavens…who else would work the fields in the hot summer?
If you discover that another being, whom you consider equally deserving of respect for their life as yourself, being brutalized by others, should you ignore their plight out of respect for the brutalizers “freedom of choice” or to avoid “annoying” them, or should you try to help?
OK. Have it your way. We’re all slave-trading Nazis over here on the omnivore side, and have been since the beginning of time. The two really are apt comparisons, and the statement doesn’t lack any kind of critical perspective of any kind. Animals are as good as — no, even better than — people across the board. I have seen the light.
And what a light it is! We’re bad, bad people over here. We’re an evil species, AK, just plain evil, because we hunger for something that is morally wrong to hunger for. Our desires are murderous, vile, wicked and cruel — not natural at all! The only people who are right about everything under the sun are the vegans, because diet is the most important means of defining a person in every way.
Animal rights are far, far more important than human needs. Suffering is preventable and shouldn’t exist, and humans should be really, really concerned with stopping it because “we can.” That’s definitely a rational, realistic and, I’d say, common-sense kind of world view.
Glad we resolved that.
(OK, maybe there’s some delusion in there too, Sammule.)
Steve- that just came across as extremely hostile, defensive, and rude. Despite being very passionate about my vegetarianism- and feeling a great deal of emotion surrounding the plight of animals in factory farms, I have tried to somewhat set my feelings aside, offer my own perspective along with facts when they were available, and generally treat you as a friend. I come here for open conversation (and even friendship and fun)- not to be subjected to the temper tantrums of people who can’t stand it when someone else (other than themselves) makes a point.
My feelings are actually hurt by that post- and I felt it totally unnecessary for you to react that way and then mock me in front of others (clearly for lack of any other reasonable response).
That’s just poor and immature behavior, no matter what. I won’t discuss it with you anymore, because, clearly, you can’t handle it.
Steve- that just came across as extremely hostile, defensive, and rude. Despite being very passionate about my vegetarianism- and feeling a great deal of emotion surrounding the plight of animals in factory farms, I have tried to somewhat set my feelings aside, offer my own perspective along with facts when they were available, and generally treat you as a friend.
While I hear what you’re saying, I’d prefer if you didn’t pretend that you were on the moral high road here. You as good as called anyone who didn’t agree with you a bunch of slave-trading, genocidal Nazis. That’s about as rude as it gets.
I didn’t take it personally, but I think it’s more than fair to respond with a boiled down, exaggerated-for-effect restatement of the views you’ve put forth. I realized that it touched a nerve, and it wasn’t my intention to hurt your feelings, but the point needed to be made.
Well, that’s the ‘delusional’ part right there, though, right? I think AskaKasha spelled it out quite well with the (very tired, old) comparison to Nazi Germany and the African Slave Trade. This is the part where, I think like Mr. Shanafelt, I get a little annoyed by the “Vegetarian” argument; when it starts to preach and fluff up it’s feathers.
Do you make those comparisons to Jews being gassed in Auschwitz while you are visiting your friends’ houses, too? Or just online?
I don’t buy shoes made by little kids in China, but that doesn’t somehow make me better than you. And it would be delusional for me to think that a little, nearly symbolic act like that would somehow wash me clean of the sin of being a part of this dirty, messed-up world in the first place.
How about a compromise? I will continue to eat some amount of meat in my diet, but I promise to feel sincerely guilty about doing so.
Last night for supper my wife fixed tacos, and I had about 9 or 10 of them (lost count), all filled with delicious ground beef - not the cheap stuff they put in tacos at these fast food places. And what I felt guilty about was getting so full I could not eat any of her strawberry shortcake afterward.
Wow! Would anyone else like to step up and take a jab?
Steve- real apologies don’t include excuses, if, ands, or buts.
For me, the comparison was fitting. In all of those cases, people treated other beings horrifcally based on their belief that those beings were lesser in some way- and, at some point (really not soon enough) others had the courage to come forward and challenge their views- even use force to end their abuse. Many arguments that have been offered here suggest that, because we perceive animals as being less intelligent, we have the right to subject them to whatever we want, no matter how painful or emotionally agonizing….and no matter how unnecessary. I don’t agree with that- at all. Sorry if that offends you.
Why do you think the Holocaust and slavery were SO different than subjecting other thinking and feeling beings to the careless neglect and brutality of factory farms?
I’m not the only one, by-the-way, that sees the similarity. The book Eternal Treblinka discusses the similarities, in depth- and includes contributions from actual holocaust survivors- who agree that the similarities are painfully unavoidable.
For offering the viewpoint of someone who makes “sacrifices” daily in order to live as compassionate a life as possible, I have been called “religious” (which, I am sure Ralph didn’t mean as a compliment…but I’ll let him clarify, if he’d like), I have been called “delusional” and “dangerous”, and I have had it implied that I am “illogical” “unreasonable” etc. etc.
Did this hit a nerve for me? Yes. Especially considering that religious fanaticism has lead to more war and genocide than anything else. But- I know myself, and I know I am none of those things. Therefore- I feel no need to react with hostile defensiveness.
If you are so offended, you might ask yourself “why”? “Why does it make me so uncomfortable (and defensive) when someone compares me to others who had complete and total disregard for the lives of others?”
Really- all I have stated is that 1) I think factory farms inflict cruelty on animals (and I don’t really think any of you would disagree with this). 2) that, since I don’t need meat, it doesn’t make sense to cause such suffering for others in order to indulge myself with meat, dairy, eggs, etc. 3) horrid suffering has occurred in the past, and people eventually recognized it for what it was and brought an end to it. Call me crazy, but I don’t see why those claims should offend anyone. But- I have always thought that defensiveness is the first sign of guilt.
Brebro- I think you already feel guilty about it, but NO, that’s not enough- and not a fair compromise, as your guilt does nothing in the way of reducing suffering. Besides- guilt is worthless if it doesn’t cause you to cease the behavior you feel guilty about.
AND- yes, I have made those comparisons with friends in their homes and mine, in the past. Actually had a similar discussion with friends last night (all meat eaters)- and no one got pissed off.
ashakasha, your perception of the guilt trigger is right on, i think. nothing makes people angrier than feeling guilty ... at least in my experience. that sort of sarcasm is typically a “last resort retort” when the logic is irrefutable.
i can see how you can compare your feelings of horror over the treatment of animals to the horror experienced by most over the treatment of jews in the holocaust. you’re comparing the feelings of horror, it seems to me, and not the people who eat meat to nazis. feelings, not people ... am i interpreting that right? i didn’t sense the accusation that others (steve?) may have ... i have often felt the same in my feelings of horror over the act, say, of abortion and of child abuse.
i hope that you are as understanding of the passions of those would protect unborn human life (not trying to bring that topic into this thread, but to make a similar comparison of FEELINGS that motivate ACTIVISM and INVOLVEMENT, whether they are shared views or not) ...
the passion you feel toward the (mis)treatment of animals is your motivation for veganism as well as your activism on this board. i commend you for having the courage of your convictions, whether i agree with them or not ...
(for the record, the habits to which i aspire are: i eat dairy and fish ... the occasional meat if i’m pretty sure that it was an animal treated humanely ... i have fallen short of my aspirations too many times, but i keep trying ...)
It would be hard to accuse most meat eaters of being similar to nazis- nazis carried out their hideous neglect and torture first hand. I would say that, if there is a direct comparison to be made, it would be to the german public who turned a blind eye to what was happening in concentration camps (hmmmm…concentration camps somewhat hidden from the public eye…and slaughterhouses…another similarity I hadn’t considered).
The arguments a few on here are making, however, do sound terribly familiar to arguments that have been made to support slavery, and yes, complete and utter, heinous abuse of the lives of jews. I would be lying if I didn’t admit to seeing the similarity. I don’t think Steve and others actually feel this way, though. Steve, afterall, admits to playing the “devil’s advocate”- but has also offered that, for a “variety of reasons” (none shared here) he isn’t too fond of factory farms.
“i hope that you are as understanding of the passions of those would protect unborn human life”
I am completely, 100% against abortion under almost any circumstance. I find it to be THE MOST horrific thing humans do, as they do it to their own children. I support responsible sex (which is good for all involved- on every level imaginable). And yes, I completely understand those that feel a need to actively stop it. I wouldn’t be supportive of blowing up a building (at least not with other people in it) though.
you and i have even more in common than i originally thought. :)
the most recent clincher for me (in regards to not eating factory farmed meat) was the recent video of the cow being chased by and bulldozed by the coward on the forklift thingy ...
my daughter (a formerly diehard carnivore) finally agreed to join me in not eating farmed meat when she saw that ...
there is no denying that animals have souls, feel pain and anguish and love ... the utter bewilderment they must feel when we treat them as we do is unimaginable ...
that’s another reason to hope/believe that we are NOT the highest form of intelligence in this universe ... surely they are watching us, shaking their heads and wondering, “WTF????”
