To the Arist formally known as Pfff,

I’ve offered several (two, actually) examples showing it to be fabrication. I get that you are not going to admit being incorrect.

 

I conceded that to you twice already. (homelessness in Europe not being “virtually non-existent” anymore) What more are you asking for?

 

I also explained how Europe’s homeless rate is still far below ours.

From your own source http://www.youthxchange.net/main/b236_homeless-p.asp:

In Europe “some 3 million people have no fixed home of their own”.

Now click your source’s North America page, where’ll you’ll read:

“is estimated that the homeless population reached 3.5 million, but about 7 million Americans have experienced homelessness”

 

Europe’s population: roughly 831 million

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Europe

US population: roughly 308 million

http://www.census.gov/

 

Do the math. According to your source, the US has at least 2 to 3 times the rate of homelessness that Europe has.

 

And this is before considering these factors:

 

1. Europe calculates homelessness differently. There if one is residing in temporary free gov’t housing (with their own room), they are still numbered as homeless. Not so in the states. Here in the US we don’t even have free gov’t housing as an option, unless you count our barracks-like shelters that are often overcrowded and need to turn people away.

 

2. Your source makes clear that in most European countries, from 41% to “more than 50%” of their homeless are foreigners/immigrants. These are mostly refugees and asylum-seekers from Africa and the Middle East. Of course they’re going to be considered homeless if they don’t have or can’t get the EU citizenship necessary to have a legal residence.

 

I dont read anything you’ve provided that presents a reasonable example of how that can be done or what it woudl look like

 

What part of “I don’t have all the answers” did you miss?

 

you’re speaking off the cuff

What part of “off the top of my head” did you miss?

 

Will her life suddenly have meaning because she makes an extra 50 bucks before taxes for a 40 hour week? Is that extra cash going to gurantee her entry into, what, middle class comfort?

 

I never argued anything would give a life “meaning” but would it make her life much less stressful and more comfortable. Absolutely! $50 a week = $2600 a year. An extra $150 a week would be better, but that $50 can make a big difference for someone living paycheck to paycheck, falling behind in debt, and barely keeping a roof over their head. And would her lower stress level positively effect her interactions with others (including customers). Absolutely! Studies have been done that prove this correlation (stress impairs social interaction) but I don’t need to find them for you. It’s 2+2=4 and you know it.

 

As for taxes, that’s how the Europeans do it. Whether on the sales or the income side, they pay a lot more in taxes. And they see the benefits.

 

I dont really think the working class drone is one to diefy

 

Again: I never diefied anyone. Where do you get this ridiculous assumption?

 

it does no help to the conversation to paint pictures with hyperbole about how perfect, say, Germany, or Ireland is. It’s just not true.

 

Again: I never said they were perfect. Only that they worked better than our system.

 

And even if it were, that doesnt change the fact that the US is a very different country.

 

That’s a cop-out. The countries of Europe were once very different countries as well. Most were feudal monarchies and dictatorships. (and if the banksters of Wall Street have their way, they’ll soon be like that again.) Yet from 1945 - 1970 they managed to improve things dramatically within just 1 or 2 generations.

 

guaranteed path to permanent middle class ennui. Or that that is an enviable option. No thanks.

 

When did I advocate ennui? And since when is middle class always synonymous with ennui? If someone is economically comfortable and they suffer from ennui, that is a sign of their own personal failings, not the system’s. Most of us could think of plenty of meaningful things to do with our leisure time if we were just afforded more of it. Something the Danish model would do.

Here’s a source that confirms everything I’ve been saying “off the cuff”:

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=4086092&page=1&page=1
(I’ll add this to the first post now)

 

“He said he doesn’t mind collecting garbage for a living, because he works just five hours in the morning and then can spend the rest of the day at home with family or coaching his daughter’s handball team. Dion says no one judges his choice of career, and he actually loves what he does because he has many friends along his route. It makes him happy when he sees the children who wave to him and the old ladies who bring him cups of coffee. “

 

“Those high taxes have another effect. Since a banker can end up taking home as much money as an artist, people don’t chose careers based on income or status. A garbage man can live in a middle-class neighborhood and hold his head high.”

 

Am I saying we should adopt the Danish model 100%? Not necessarily. But a system halfway between theirs and ours would probably be perfect. (or as close to perfect as possible)

mat catastrophe - 25 October 2009 10:08 AM

˙∂ß∆˙ - 24 October 2009 10:24 PM

mat catastrophe - 24 October 2009 08:45 PM

Andy Palast - 24 October 2009 03:37 PM

Put up or shut up.

You’ve managed to do neither.

Why must you hate poor people so, mat?

Because they are poor. In this great nation where anyone can do anything there is simply no reason why all these poor people cannot rise up and become middle-management and lead lives of not-so-quiet-not-quite-desperation or, better yet, they could rise all the way up to corporate executives - all of them, each and every poor person in the country - and lead lives of loud consumption and consumer-driven-greed and insanity!

There is just no reason for them to be lazy in their minimum-wage-slave doldrums! Not when the effete musico-intellectual class stands at the ready to lift them out of the waters of boredom and ineffectualness and place them firmly on the dry land of productivity and creativity, merely by the force of their own arrogance and cello-driven muzak.

Not to mention their stunning coifs.

It’s easy to shovel half-assed snark and second-rate cynicism. It’s much harder to offer something constructive and useful. And it’s easy to assume only the worst about other people and their intentions. But you only make an ass out of yourself when you do so.

You’ve made it obvious you’ve got no argument on this topic. So you distract with trollish personal insults.

merely by the force of their own arrogance

How exactly does arrogance play a part here at all? Outside of your feeble & hate-fueled imagination, that is?

and cello-driven muzak.

Ah, I see, we made muzak. You must be one of those hipster-douche noise-snobs who thinks accessibility = evil. Sorry we couldn’t be more helpful in your quest to get tinnitus.

Not to mention their stunning coifs.

lol. Could you make your pathetic superficiality any more obvious? Hey, I’m sorry if we weren’t enough like metro-sexual Milan runway models for you. But since we weren’t trying to attract the last remaining Duran Duran groupie, we’ll keep our super cuts, thank you.

Andy Palast - 25 October 2009 04:03 PM

Do the math. According to your source, the US has at least 2 to 3 times the rate of homelessness that Europe has.

And, Again, I never claimed otherwise. As you say, it’s ‘my source’. I just took exception with the incorrect assertion that it didnt exist, because, as you say, you “didnt see it”.

 

I dont read anything you’ve provided that presents a reasonable example of how that can be done or what it woudl look like

 

What part of “I don’t have all the answers” did you miss?

The part where I read anything that was actually thought-provoking in origionality instead of some guys diary entry and rage against the machine

 

you’re speaking off the cuff

What part of “off the top of my head” did you miss?

the part where you pretended to have statistic supporting your little theory.

 

Will her life suddenly have meaning because she makes an extra 50 bucks before taxes for a 40 hour week? Is that extra cash going to gurantee her entry into, what, middle class comfort?

I never argued anything would give a life “meaning” but would it make her life much less stressful and more comfortable. Absolutely! $50 a week = $2600 a year. An extra $150 a week would be better, but that $50 can make a big difference for someone living paycheck to paycheck, falling behind in debt, and barely keeping a roof over their head. And would her lower stress level positively effect her interactions with others (including customers). Absolutely! Studies have been done that prove this correlation (stress impairs social interaction) but I don’t need to find them for you. It’s 2+2=4 and you know it.

Like I said, you need to think a little bigger. In addition, you are still making the assumption I a arguing against raising wages or lowering the typical work week’s hours. I’m not. I think there are valuable aspects of many of ‘systems’ from around the world, and throughout history. I just think that the ideas you’ve presented here represent a major simplification of the issue, and merely add to the characature of the wide-eyed liberal instead of a reasonable debate.

 

As for taxes, that’s how the Europeans do it. Whether on the sales or the income side, they pay a lot more in taxes. And they see the benefits.

And I never argued otherwise.

 

 

I dont really think the working class drone is one to diefy

 

Again: I never diefied anyone. Where do you get this ridiculous assumption?

Your words and your bleeding heart empathy for some girl selling you bananas.

 

it does no help to the conversation to paint pictures with hyperbole about how perfect, say, Germany, or Ireland is. It’s just not true.

 

Again: I never said they were perfect. Only that they worked better than our system.

No, you claimed poverty and homelessness basically didnt exist.

 

And even if it were, that doesnt change the fact that the US is a very different country.

 

That’s a cop-out. The countries of Europe were once very different countries as well. Most were feudal monarchies and dictatorships. (and if the banksters of Wall Street have their way, they’ll soon be like that again.) Yet from 1945 - 1970 they managed to improve things dramatically within just 1 or 2 generations.

No. I mean that europe and america are very different places. In addition, I mean that much of the european ‘socialism’ you are saying we should emulate is still built on he back of the wealth of empire. Dutch or German or French middle-class enjoy the fruits of a more “Liberal Society” to the detriment of the rest of the world they looted and pillaged to get to where they are. I don’t see it as the epitome of where our american culture should go. i see it as an example of a particular way to distribute what are still ill-begotten funds.

 

guaranteed path to permanent middle class ennui. Or that that is an enviable option. No thanks.

When did I advocate ennui? And since when is middle class always synonymous with ennui? If someone is economically comfortable and they suffer from ennui, that is a sign of their own personal failings, not the system’s. Most of us could think of plenty of meaningful things to do with our leisure time if we were just afforded more of it. Something the Danish model would do.

Again, you and i disagree on the value of the middle-class comfort and the resources it draws from.

As for the meaningful things we do with our leisure time, that still is really up to the individual. Personally, i suspect that the majority of people stuck in full-time shit jobs that smother their creativity are there because they are boring people with little to no personal motivation to empower themselves to find a different way. Yes, there are many examples of how unfair the system is. i am not defending american capitalism. I am saying that the girl at the grocery store or the kid at the hot topic can choose a lot of different ways to live.  And that to try and enoble their experience is nauseatingly boring.

You or I know little about them beyond a meaningless business transaction and to assume they are being oppressed into having a stupid job to pay rent on a stupid apartment to pay for a stupid car to get to the stupid job, or that they are indeed happy, and just felt no desire to treat you like a human because they work in a service industry job and have to deal with douchbags like you and me all day, is really neither here nor there, and is just the stuff of fake populist pap that passes for progressivism in todays culture.

Andy Palast - 25 October 2009 04:28 PM

It’s easy to shovel half-assed snark and second-rate cynicism. It’s much harder to offer something constructive and useful. And it’s easy to assume only the worst about other people and their intentions. But you only make an ass out of yourself when you do so.

You think this is easy? I had to quit one of my meaningless, low-paying jobs just to catch up on my Freshman humanities reading just to engage you on this topic. This isn’t easy! I haven’t had to think this hard since I was 19! Maybe 20!

You’ve made it obvious you’ve got no argument on this topic. So you distract with trollish personal insults.

I was never aware that you presented any points to argue. You posted some sort of essay or something. I guess you need that proofread before you turn it into whichever professor is heading up the classroom section of your humanities class at UNC-A.

How exactly does arrogance play a part here at all? Outside of your feeble & hate-fueled imagination, that is?

You tell me, Spokesperson For The Masses.

Oh, and “feeble”? I won’t argue you for one second on “hate-fueled.” I am the double-plus goodness of all that is the Hate Generation and I thank you kindly for noticing. Now, just get down to the business of witnessing with awe and trepidation and we will be better friends and all that.

Ah, I see, we made muzak. You must be one of those hipster-douche noise-snobs who thinks accessibility = evil. Sorry we couldn’t be more helpful in your quest to get tinnitus.

Just keep telling yourself that your appeal is selective. That will get you through the tour, even if you are playing free jazz at daytime gigs.

lol. Could you make your pathetic superficiality any more obvious? Hey, I’m sorry if we weren’t enough like metro-sexual Milan runway models for you. But since we weren’t trying to attract the last remaining Duran Duran groupie, we’ll keep our super cuts, thank you.

This is actually the closest you have come to being clever. Maybe JRM wasn’t so wrong, after all.

theoretical, bored, apathetic banana sales associates everywhere weep at your class-based insensitivity and blase disregard for their struggle to afford extra shots at the bar, mat.

˙≤∂∆ß≥ ˚ å∂ßå ˙ - 25 October 2009 09:14 PM

theoretical, bored, apathetic banana sales associates everywhere weep at your class-based insensitivity and blase disregard for their struggle to afford extra shots at the bar, mat.

Their inability to break the chains of industrial banana fiefdom and embrace bananarchy as a viable and preferable alternative is not my problem, nor is it my problem that the problem is inherent in a class system which values class over values nor is it my problem that the mall rats that bought horrible music like Yellowcard, which featured a violin cannot see the awesome truth and reality of DARPA and the awesome seriousness of a truly rock-and-#######-roll instrument like the cello and how it strives to free them from an irredeemable life of seething hate and lower-middle class despair as they stand in line at the Orange Peel waiting for those nine dollar shots to come from the not-at-all-interesting working class wage slave who also cannot break into her personal bananarchy while they listen JRM rock that Gibson Les Paul and imitation KAOSS pad backed by a backbeat from the latest beat sampler and musical mastermind producer, the beatoff four-thousand-one and the feeding of the five thousand cannot be accomplished without breaking a few eggs and the eggs we are going to be breaking will be splattering on the doors of North Asheville any day now as we storm the Bastille on our way to the haunted Blue Ridge Dining Room on a stately Saturday night in our best “resort casual” clothing, brought to us by peasant from a sub-standard lifestyle that we should all aspire to, instead of trying to bring the lifestyle of all humanity up to some decent 21st century ideal and then sold to us by yet another sub-working class service industry minimum wage slave, trying to hide his hatred for our nissan driving, old navy shopping ass just long us to sell us another pair of pants and a snazzy shirt to go with it so that we can make our bubble headed blonds have the ambition to dance the night away with us, stripping off the old navy clothes as we get ready to fornicate on our IKEA couch covered with throw pillows from target and all of that brought to us by the corrupt and contemptuous American machine that still makes it possible for us to dream of a day when there will be no more class and no more classist assholes to point it all out to us in walls of text that they break up with capitalist contrivances like the period and the line break.

MFC
(that still means mat ####### catastrophe)

yes, but andy palast didnt see poverty when he went to europe.

˙≤∂∆ß≥ ˚ å∂ßå ˙ - 25 October 2009 10:11 PM

yes, but andy palast didnt see poverty when he went to europe.

Because Europe sent all of their filthy poor to the New World four hundred years ago.

not to mention those great skinny shoes europeans wear. far superior to american shoes. stupid americans. europe is perfect and poverty doesnt exist there.

˙≤∂∆ß≥ ˚ å∂ßå ˙ - 25 October 2009 10:26 PM

not to mention those great skinny shoes europeans wear. far superior to american shoes. stupid americans. europe is perfect and poverty doesnt exist there.

Clearly.

So Pfff,

What you’re saying is that you basically agree with everything I said in my first post, but since you still want some excuse to pick a fight and argue with me, you invent these fantasy statements I didn’t make. Tilt at windmills much?

Since you enjoy arguing so much (and judging by your ubiquity here, apparently have way too much time to do it), why don’t you put that passion to far more productive use and try arguing with someone you actually disagree with? Since you identify as “librul” I’ll help you out and give you some suggestions. There are plenty of right-wing internet forums where your contrarian input is much needed. Here’s a couple:

http://townhall.com/youropinion/
http://www.conservativesforum.com/
http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/*/index
(this one bans liberals pretty quick, but you can at least get a few comments in first)

Give ‘em hell, Internet warrior!

Now let’s get back to correcting your latest batch of assumptions on this thread. Oh wait, they’re the exact same assumptions I already dispatched. So why do you keep wasting my time by repeating them?

>I just took exception with the incorrect assertion that it didnt exist, because, as you say, you “didnt see it”.

I never said homelessness in Europe “didn’t exist”. I said it was virtually non-existant when compared to the rates in the US. Do you know what “virtually” means?
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/virtually
- in effect though not in fact; practically; nearly
- Almost but not quite; nearly
- in essence or effect but not in fact

Yes, you do know what it means? Then you’re deliberately lying and misrepresenting me.

>it didnt exist, because, as you say, you “didnt see it”.

I use one anectodal piece of information to go along with all the solid facts that countless studies have proven (US vs Europe in crime, education, life expectancy, poverty, etc), and then you falsely present my whole argument as anectodal. Are you just really slow, or are you deliberately trying to mislead? (hint: there’s no third option)

>Dutch or German or French middle-class enjoy the fruits of a more “Liberal Society” to the detriment of the rest of the world they looted and pillaged to get to where they are. I don’t see it as the epitome of where our american culture should go. i see it as an example of a particular way to distribute what are still ill-begotten funds.

Europe’s “Age of Imperialism” ended in the early 20th century and most of it’s colonial spoils were depleted by WW2, which devastated the economies of most European countries. Their economic recovery since then has been built almost entirely with their own (non-stolen) resources and trade. As I’m sure you know, the only remaining imperial power is us. Do modern Europeans still see some residual benefit from a history of imperialism? Maybe a little bit. But not as much as we do. Which makes my original point even stronger: With all the extra wealth we continue to loot from third-world countries, millions of us still aren’t paid a livable wage for the jobs Europeans can live comfortably on. 

>Personally, i suspect that the majority of people stuck in full-time shit jobs that smother their creativity are there because they are boring people with little to no personal motivation to empower themselves to find a different way.

So you’re still ignoring 2 of the main points in my first post.
1. Even with the “motivation to empower themselves”, many people just don’t have the talent, intellect, and cunning to get ahead. There are millions of stories of people in this country who followed the rules and worked their asses off, only to wind up broke anyway. Many are hampered by untreated or untreatable illnesses. Some just have low IQ’s. Even if they’re “boring”, does that mean they deserve to suffer the debilitating stress of economic hardship? (not being able to pay bills on time, not being able to support their children, falling into debt due to medical bills, inflated college tuitions and loan payments, etc) And this isn’t just my “bleeding heart empathy” talking here. The economic desperation of others affects you and me. It leads to an increased crime rate, as those who see no other options and have nothing to lose will resort to crime. This puts you and your children (if and when you have them) at greater danger.

2. If everyone was less “boring” and able to rise out of poverty, who would be left to do those low-paying shit jobs?

>And that to try and enoble their experience is nauseatingly boring.

No shit, genius. I agree. I never said they were more or less noble than anyone else. I’m sure a lot of them are jerks. I even alluded to that in my first post. Read the first paragraph again. Does it sound like I’m portraying her as a saint?

Come to think of it, you better not go on those right-wing forums. You’re gonna make us liberals look stupid.

mat catastrophe - 25 October 2009 08:54 PM

How exactly does arrogance play a part here at all? Outside of your feeble & hate-fueled imagination, that is?

You tell me, Spokesperson For The Masses.

 

So presenting an opinion on a “News and Views” forum = I think I’m the Spokesperson For The Masses. Pretty weak. Try again, hotshot. If you’re gonna throw around charges of “arrogance” you need to justify it.

This is actually an important side-topic for me. Not because I personally give a shit whether you think I’m arrogant or not. But because I often see shallow small-minded tools like yourself leveling this charge at good, well-meaning people I respect and admire. And it poisons the debate. So defend it. Let’s start with: How do you define “arrogant”? My little dictionary says “proud and overbearing through an exaggerated feeling of one’s superiority”.
Hmmm, kinda sounds like every single post you’ve added to this thread. Project much?

Andy Palast - 24 October 2009 03:37 PM

Andy Palast - 20 October 2009 03:16 PM

Mat:
“someone comes in with some half-baked notion of the “lives of quiet desperation” led by the grunts of the service industry, while failing completely to realize how utterly misplaced most of his angst is.”

1. OK then, enlighten me. Give me some substantive counterpoints.

2. My misplaced angst? This coming from someone who gets their panties in a twist over line breaks and JRM signing off with a monogram?!? Oh, the horror! Someone wrote their initials! Run for the hills! Seriously, what is so offensive about a monogram for christ’s sake? And if that and lack of line breaks are your biggest sources of torment, you’re the last person who should be accusing someone else of misplaced angst.

 

Still waiting, Mat.
You’ve posted lots of useless fluff since, but still no response.

I’ve given you a whole additional week to think about it. And still nothing. Cat got your tongue all of a sudden, Mat?

You’re the one bumping old threads. You are willingly friends with Jason Ross Fartin. You lose, not just the argument, but at life.

Ol’ Budder - 31 October 2009 01:02 PM

You’re the one bumping old threads. You are willingly friends with Jason Ross Fartin. You lose, not just the argument, but at life.

Wow, that’s some sterling logic there, Beavis.

heh heh, he said “fartin”, heh heh