Mat:
“someone comes in with some half-baked notion of the “lives of quiet desperation” led by the grunts of the service industry, while failing completely to realize how utterly misplaced most of his angst is.”
1. OK then, enlighten me. Give me some substantive counterpoints.
2. My misplaced angst? This coming from someone who gets their panties in a twist over line breaks and JRM signing off with a monogram?!? Oh, the horror! Someone wrote their initials! Run for the hills! Seriously, what is so offensive about a monogram for christ’s sake? And if that and lack of line breaks are your biggest sources of torment, you’re the last person who should be accusing someone else of misplaced angst.
Still waiting, Mat.
You’ve posted lots of useless fluff since, but still no response.
I’ve given you a whole additional week to think about it. And still nothing. Cat got your tongue all of a sudden, Mat?
The only thing the cat has is your ability to use a simple message board’s simple little features.
Honestly, I couldn’t be bothered with you or your “ideas.” I am too busy being one of the working class stiffs that you supposedly empathize with.
For some of us these things are real day-to-day issues, not some academic abstraction that we talk about in between bong hits and band practice.
Get a life, dude. Your “radical” ideas about society and working class milieu will not feed you past the age of thirty.
did you know in europe everyone eats vegan steak for dinner and weed is legal, and war doesnt exist and blowjobs are free? Banana vendors have many opportunities for finding meaning in life, their children’s college is paid for by the king, and health care is the top of the line in blood letting and leeches. Well, at least that’s what i saw when my parents bought me a europass and i had my credit card with me. now my parents aremaking me actually pay off HALF off the interest in te credit card, so i had to get a JOB! America sucks. I’m represessed by crapitalism.
Mat:
“someone comes in with some half-baked notion of the “lives of quiet desperation” led by the grunts of the service industry, while failing completely to realize how utterly misplaced most of his angst is.”
1. OK then, enlighten me. Give me some substantive counterpoints.
2. My misplaced angst? This coming from someone who gets their panties in a twist over line breaks and JRM signing off with a monogram?!? Oh, the horror! Someone wrote their initials! Run for the hills! Seriously, what is so offensive about a monogram for christ’s sake? And if that and lack of line breaks are your biggest sources of torment, you’re the last person who should be accusing someone else of misplaced angst.
Still waiting, Mat.
You’ve posted lots of useless fluff since, but still no response.
I’ve given you a whole additional week to think about it. And still nothing. Cat got your tongue all of a sudden, Mat?
The only thing the cat has is your ability to use a simple message board’s simple little features.
Honestly, I couldn’t be bothered with you or your “ideas.” I am too busy being one of the working class stiffs that you supposedly empathize with.
For some of us these things are real day-to-day issues, not some academic abstraction that we talk about in between bong hits and band practice.
Get a life, dude. Your “radical” ideas about society and working class milieu will not feed you past the age of thirty.
1. So you could be bothered to post your trollish little hit-and-run snark attacks. But you can’t be bothered to back them up with any real substance. Translation: You got nothing. Admit it. Did you think I was just gonna let you go unchallenged?
2. Newsflash: I too am one of those working class stiffs for whom these things are real day-to-day issues, not some academic abstraction. I’ve never been to college. I’m already well past thirty. I don’t smoke weed. And I’m not presently in a band or even doing music. Are you trying to set a record for most idiotically wrong assumptions in one post?
3. Get a life, huh? lol. This coming from someone who spends far more time than me on this forum. And spends it posting moronic off-topic inanities and personal attacks instead of anything remotely approaching thoughtful. Wow, “dude”, you’re like, being a hypocrite, no?
Again: Did you think I was gonna let you go unchallenged?
Andy, the last thing you really want is for me to take you seriously enough to actually respond to your original post.
You should probably take a deep breath and try to interact with the community here before posting another essay and expecting everyone to just fall down at your feet.
For the record, I do not believe I have leveled any personal attacks at you. If you would like to go back and actually provide instances of personal attacks directed at you - then I will address those and make apologies where necessary.
Until then, your tired and worn-out cliches from the internet message board playbook are showing out from every seam you have stitched here. I know the playbook - I helped edit the Second Edition.
Or, you could take a break and try to actually contribute to any one of the hundreds of other conversations here that weren’t started by you.
Until then, your tired and worn-out cliches from the internet message board playbook are showing out from every seam you have stitched here. I know the playbook - I helped edit the Second Edition.
I do truly love it when people come to this forum and spout some nonsense diary entry, and then act all offended when someone responds to it with, you know, facts and stuff.
Especially when they then claim that spending time on this Forum is for idiots and losers and they can’t be bothered to actually respond to the articulate and specific response to their ideas, but instead feel the need to denigrate the character of the accusers and responders while acting in the same way they are condemning, while never getting around to actually refuting the facts presented.
no, far better to claim that the internet is for idiots. I wonder, does andy get mad at books at the library, too?
“Stupid Books! you’ve got referenceable facts that don’t support my off-the-cuff opinion. i hate Books!! Libraries are for retards! I’m going to the grocery store to liberate the cashier!”
I do truly love it when people come to this forum and spout some nonsense diary entry, and then act all offended when someone responds to it with, you know, facts and stuff.
Especially when they then claim that spending time on this Forum is for idiots and losers and they can’t be bothered to actually respond to the articulate and specific response to their ideas, but instead feel the need to denigrate the character of the accusers and responders while acting in the same way they are condemning, while never getting around to actually refuting the facts presented.
no, far better to claim that the internet is for idiots. I wonder, does andy get mad at books at the library, too?
“Stupid Books! you’ve got referenceable facts that don’t support my off-the-cuff opinion. i hate Books!! Libraries are for retards! I’m going to the grocery store to liberate the cashier!”
All any objective observer needs to do is read through this thread from the beginning to see how laughably off your assessment of it is. And they’ll see how all these words you attribute to me don’t bear the slightest resemblance to anything I actually said.
See replies #2, 7, 8, 40, 76, 86.
Read them again.
Where does it sound like I’m avoiding your “facts”? Which of your points have I failed to respond to? Find one and let me know. I’ll respond to it now.
I’m not offended by your “facts and stuff”. (and I’ve shown most of them to be false or irrelevant) I’m not offended at all. Just disappointed that you can’t have a civil debate/discussion without resorting to childish taunts and distortions.
So find me that “articulate and specific” point of yours I’ve thus far failed to reply to and I’ll be happy to do it now.
Andy, the last thing you really want is for me to actually respond to your original post.
No, that’s the only thing I want.
mat catastrophe - 01 November 2009 08:37 AM
You should probably take a deep breath and try to interact with the community here before posting another essay and expecting everyone to just fall down at your feet.
Fall down at my feet? Where do you get these kooky ideas? I’d be happy to have civil debate of the issues with anyone who disagrees with me. That’s how we grow and learn. But you haven’t done that. All you’ve done is leave snide insults of my old band, my myspace page, my hair, assumptions about my personal character/background, etc. (btw, you should probably stop making assumptions. You’re not good at it. You’ve been wrong every time)
You’ve addressed everything except the topic.
mat catastrophe - 01 November 2009 08:37 AM
For the record, I do not believe I have leveled any personal attacks at you. If you would like to go back and actually provide instances of personal attacks directed at you - then I will address those and make apologies where necessary.
see above.
And no, I don’t want or need your apologies. What I’d like is for you to respond to the questions I asked you in posts 40 and 87.
mat catastrophe - 01 November 2009 08:37 AM
Until then, your tired and worn-out cliches from the internet message board playbook are showing out from every seam you have stitched here. I know the playbook - I helped edit the Second Edition.
Or, you could take a break and try to actually contribute to any one of the hundreds of other conversations here that weren’t started by you.
I have contributed to other threads in the past. I’ve been a member here for close to 2 years. And I’ve looked at some of the other recent threads. I just haven’t felt inspired to comment on them. See, unlike you, I actually wait until I have something of substance to add before I shoot my mouth off.
Andy, the last thing you really want is for me to actually respond to your original post.
No, that’s the only thing I want.
Well, then. Here it is. Remember, you asked for it.
Andy Palast - 18 October 2009 03:47 PM
This morning I went to the grocery store to pick up some bananas. When I got to the check-out counter I was met with the all-too-common person: A service-industry employee who seems to be going out of their way to broadcast how bored, miserable, and unfulfilled they are with their job. Oh, she said all the things she was supposed to say (“How are you?”, “That’ll be $1.63”, etc) and nothing more, but the way she said them would make you want to slit your wrists. When she got to the “Have a Nice Day” part, she didn’t even come close to making eye contact, preferring to stare into space like a zombie on quaaludes.
Or, you know, just a zombie. I’m not sure how drugs affect the undead but I’ve a feeling they don’t really make that much difference. Sorry, there’s just not much else to talk about in this paragraph - especially if I have to avoid your terrible sentence structure.
During my brief encounter with her I tried to think of something to say that would brighten her day, something that could relieve the drudgery of her existence, something that wasn’t just another stupid cliche, not just for her benefit but for mine as well. But as usual I just didn’t have the mental energy to come up with anything. So I walked out of the store feeling worse than when I walked in. I’m pretty sure that wasn’t her intention, but it’s the often inevitable result.
Ok. I’m guessing you had to get the bananas so that you might be able to summon up the mental energy necessary to interact with a fellow human being on some basic, non-cliched level - in order so that they and, in turn, you would feel better? Also, I like how you don’t bother to hide the fact that altruism is not your root motive. You are made to feel guilty by this person and you wish to assuage that guilt. This same feeling is what causes people to recycle, drive Priuses and talk about the “green economy.” Not too long ago they talked about “gender issues” or “race” for the same reasons.
As I was walking back to my car I got to thinking about deadend low-wage jobs in general and all the people who are stuck in them, living those “lives of quiet desperation” Thoreau wrote about. And I was reminded of some recent TV news segments I’d seen featuring the latest batch of “success gurus”. One of their favorite mantras is: “Do what you love and the success will follow”. Another one is “Love what you do and you will never work a day in your life”. It’s the same old bullshit they were peddling decades ago. But with this current economic downturn, the sharks are coming out in droves to prey on the increased supply of desperate suckers.
“Success gurus” are not talking to the lower or working classes.
Do what you love and the success will follow, huh? Tell that to the 95%+ of musicians, bands, and singer/songwriters who have barely made a penny doing what they love. At best they can keep their music as a hobby on the side while they pay the bills doing something else, something for which “love” probably isn’t too dearly felt.
So, art is not worthwhile without also being commerce? I suppose I should quit writing songs for the amusement of my boys and just worry about marketing a tawdry piece of pop culture pablum for a quick and dirty profit.
Do what you love and the success will follow, huh? If this were truely a realistic option for everybody, then who would be left to clean our public toilets, remove our garbage, or wash our dishes when we eat out at a restaurant? And even if all these jobs could be automated or done by robots, where would that leave all the people who used to do them? Can they all achieve success just by doing what they love?
Are you saying it is completely impossible to love these jobs? Is menial labor somehow completely unrewarding? Could it be that the rewards for the most menial - and often most necessary - jobs in our society are far less than the rewards for the criminals who control the system?
Hmm, let’s see: I love watching movies, listening to music, eating Ben & Jerry’s, playing Wallyball (it’s so fun!), travelling to other countries, and oh yeah, having sex (who doesn’t?). But I’ve yet to think of a way to get paid for doing any of those things. In fact, they usually cost money. (insert sex joke here)
Hanke loves movies and gets paid to write about them. Shanafelt loves music and has been paid to write about it. Eating Ben & Jerry’s is similar to driving a Prius or recycling but I think I have already covered the problems that company has in another thread. Lots of people get paid to write about obscure sports and travel and some people even get paid to write about the sex they are having. Either you are short on ideas or you need more interesting hobbies.
Another problem is that even if you’re good at something you love, that’s not enough to be successful at it. Here’s why: You know those handful of jobs you would love doing? Guess what: They’re the same jobs everyone else would love doing. So you can’t just be good. You need to be really, really, really good. You need to be better than almost anyone else at it. And then, just maybe then, you might be able to have a sustainable career doing what you love. And you’d be one of the lucky few.
What jobs are those, exactly? You don’t seem to say - you just seem to know what jobs are the ones that everyone wants to have.
What these asshole success gurus always leave out of the equation in this ######-up “free-market” capitalist system is the simple fact that for one person to be at the top, someone else needs to be at the bottom. (uh, insert sex joke here?) No matter what field you’re in, there just isn’t enough room for everyone who enters it to be successful. Most of us are eventually gonna have to end up settling for something less than what we had hoped. And it isn’t because we were lazy and didn’t try hard enough. It’s because we just didn’t have what it takes. Nature dealt us an inferior genetic hand. Despite what the success gurus and self-help con artists try to tell you, we can’t all be the Alpha.
The first sentence in this is the only really good point I have read in this entire piece. Sure, I only say that because I say the exact same thing - but that is ok - most of the ideas we think are brilliant are considered brilliant because we ourselves like them or can identify with them. It’s true and it is why you should always have a very diverse group of people in your life in order to always have some sense of perspective.
So, which gurus and con-artists are selling the Alpha myth? You don’t say and I have to assume that at least one of them does, even though I can’t recall ever hearing anyone advance that notion.
So where does that leave us? In a pit of despair and hopelessness? I don’t have all the answers, but one thing I would do is to recommend we follow the example of what has worked very well in most Western European countries. You know, those places where people live longer and healthier, have far less crime, are better educated, and homelesness and poverty are virtually non-existent.
We should export our poor to another continent and wait 300 years? Good idea.
They found that one of the reasons for their contentedness is that the Danish just don’t expect much. There isn’t this relentless desire and push for everyone to be rich and famous and have more than the other guy that is so engrained in our “American dream” mentality. People who fail to make six figure salaries aren’t scorned as “losers”. But even more importantly, the people in Denmark who do get stuck doing the crap jobs that eveybody hates get paid far better than we would and have to work less hours. Duh!?! It’s so obvious. This should be a no-brainer. When you combine miserable jobs with miserable poverty-level incomes, the people who do them are going to have lives that are….....miserable. The Danish could figure this out. Why can’t we?
Asked and answered above: We have an incredibly screwed up “free-market” system. You have to understand that most of Europe was relatively well-developed and well into a commercial business culture as far back as the early 1500’s when settling this continent began. This is probably why Europe was way out in front on the social-democratic political front for many years.
But, you ask, if we pay the people at the bottom more for working less hours, where will the extra money to pay them come from? There are plenty of ways to do this. Off the top of my head, how about an extra penny or two in sales taxes? Personally, I’d be more than happy to pay a couple extra cents for my bananas if it meant that next time the lady at the check-out counter is actually smiling, actually looking me in the eyes, and actually means it when she says “Have a Nice Day”.
I’m not sure how I could possibly explain to you that adding to sales taxes would not increase wages. Seriously, if this is what passes for “great ideas” in your circle - then you definitely need to expand that circle.
Again, I can’t see anything here worth discussing at any real level of depth.
mat, at this point, you’re just putting confetti in a paper shredder. dude had no point, and cant even defend said lacking of point.
I’m not sure how I could possibly explain to you that adding to sales taxes would not increase wages. Seriously, if this is what passes for “great ideas” in your circle - then you definitely need to expand that circle.
Again, I can’t see anything here worth discussing at any real level of depth
His “Circle” includes jerks like JRM, so ...
i think this is what andy was going for:
(minus, you know, the good voice, tone, song structure, narrative, etc)
a guy eating bananas in north america while musing on the inequities of wage slavery is incredibly, dumbfoundingly, butt-puckeringly hypocritical. Ever hear of a “banana Republic” andy? No, i dont mean the store.
basically, the moral of the story is, it doesnt matter how nonsensical your little diary-entry is, as long as you can remotely connect it to something deemed “noble” (class struggle, in this case, i think, it’s all so convoluted it is quite difficult to decipher) you can then pretend that anyone critiquing the validity or of your ‘points’ is actually just attacking the the themes you are poorly attempting to convey.
Let me try;
Rich people have all the money. It isn’t fair. Poor people need money, too. In Uraguay, for example, there are no rich or poor people. And they all eat healthy salads. And bananas are indigenous. So, what we need to do is make more taxes on salads, so that the rich people will have to pay the poor people more to make the salads, because that’s how they do it in uraguay.
