I briefly visited one of my in-laws (Johnny, uncle to my wife) on the 4th. It was sort of a family reunion. One of the many children running wild in the yard (I know not his name nor his mother’s; my wife’s father was one of 15 children and it is much too difficult for me to remember their names and those of the 2-3 generations of offspring) was climbing on a rather young Bradford pear tree.
Bradfords are a very soft wood and tend to split easily. The child’s mother yelled at him to “get out of that tree right now!” When the child asked why, the mother said, “Because Johnny’s gonna whip you!” The child quickly climbed down.
Her ignorant comment immediately reminded me of this story, zen. I imagine the reason she didn’t say, “because I said so,” is that she had let this child get away with ignoring her so many times in the past, she knew her word carried no authority with the him. If she had said, “because you might break it,” i imagine his response would have been a look of confusion because she had failed to teach the child any sense of respect for other people’s property. Instead, she threatened the boy with violence, albeit deceitfully and vicariously.
Johnny is a very nice guy and certainly would not whip someone’s child, whether a relative or not. This mother, in her stupidity, has now instilled distrust and fear in this child - a fear that Johnny, given minor cause, will physically harm him. I wonder how many times in this child’s life she will teach him lessons like this - and what type of person he will grow up to be.
It’s amazing that parents use words instead of deeds to discipline. And i don’t mean ‘beating his ass’ but learning to follow up exactly and unfailingly with their threats. Sure, threaten to take away his gameboy for a week, go without supper, or even a spanking if the parent can do that with appropriate love, but follow through with it. Mete the punishment immediately and without malice, but don’t endlessly threaten for the very reason this story is a lesson - because, like drugs, you’ll have to escalate the dosage to have any effect at all!
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Probably my comment about spanking will be taken up as a symptom of child abuse, but as a child i was spanked when i deserved it and with love. i thank my parents to their very core because i needed it and they’re proud of how i turned out, loving, respectful and open.
I spank… or I used to spank but haven’t in a few years. Each time before I did it, I would calm down then explain to my children why I was doing it. It works, but don’t do it out of anger. I haven’t had to do it in four years, mainly in part that I’ve been blessed by two great kids. Even the teenager is ok!
I was spanked as a child, but my parents never did it out of anger.
I think spanking works as a last resort; it lets children know that there is an option after “time out” or whatever stupid concept is in this week. Children shouldn’t fear their parents, but they should be afraid of them, if that makes any sense.
spanking teaches kids to hit when they are frustrated themselves ... it sets a poor example and diminishes their abilities to reason themselves out of conflict, not to mention the emotional issues that develop internally.
the most effective disciplinary system i’ve ever witnessed (and used) is the 1-2-3 ... when a child is behaving inappropriately, you ask them to stop (calmly) ... if they continue, you say (quietly and without emotion) “ONE” ... they continue and you say “TWO” ... if they let you say “THREE” there is a consequence that MUST be followed through on, regardless of how inconvenient for the parent.
with both my kids (now 24 and 15), i only ever had to say “3” once for each. the “3” was not violent, it was the loss of a privilege, like no TV for a week or the loss of a favorite toy. it was so long ago now, i can’t remember, but from then on, every time i said “TWO”, they were IN MOTION in compliance. they knew if i said three, i would not back down.
i also modeled the behavior i expected of them ... for instance, i never allowed my kids to say “shut up” to anyone, and they were never told to shut up themselves.
the keys to good discipline are setting a good example, being consistent with the rules (never let them get by with something one day and punished for it the next---always the same consequences) and follow-through ...
I was spanked as a child, but my parents never did it out of anger.
I think spanking works as a last resort; it lets children know that there is an option after “time out” or whatever stupid concept is in this week. Children shouldn’t fear their parents, but they should be afraid of them, if that makes any sense.
But enough about that.
A spank is good also if the child is absolutely out of control and not listening to a thing you say. It shocks them back into a more manageable situation.
if you use proper discipline (spanking actually leads to out-of-control behaviors), the child never gets out of control. a simple 1-2-3 is most effective as a preventive ...
the keys to good discipline are setting a good example, being consistent with the rules (never let them get by with something one day and punished for it the next---always the same consequences) and follow-through ...
Yes, i agree - consistency and follow-through are the strongest. The hardest part probably for adults is the setting of good examples themselves. It all goes back to making the world a better place by being a better person rather than trying to make a better world by having children that are better than we are.
For some reason there’s also a great blog that I can’t link from “atheist mom.”
I think the general consensus is that it has different effects on different kids, different ages, etc.
Spanking can be abused. Like I said, I haven’t spanked my children in about 5 years. They’re good kids and they don’t need it, but I know of a few that do. Time outs can also be abused. I know of kids that will spend their summers in their rooms. Is that too much?
of course it’s too much ... abuse can come in the form of emotional abuse as well. any form of punishment can be abused ...
and of course parenting has a wide range of varying viewpoints, but you will find a generalized consensus within the expert field of child psychology by those who are educated and whose positions are researched that spanking is not a good idea. a child may survive it and claim to have turned out just fine, but depending on the degree to which physical punishment is used, will almost invariably have suffered some negative effect in terms of self-esteem, trust issues, etc. that will have impact through adulthood.
good parenting skills are not innate, that is true ... but if you look at the research that has developed in this field, even with the minority of dissenting views that rationalize personal decisions ("it’s not THAT bad"), it’s an irrefutable fact that violence to children does damage. lesser violence does lesser damage and more violence does more damage. it’s a matter of degree, that is true.
my favorite father of all time (who passed away almost 20 years ago, unfortunately) said with infinite wisdom, “do not teach your children to be good children, teach them to be good parents.” that can only be done through example, consistency and follow-through, and should never involve smacking a child simply because we are too frustrated or hurried to use more humane and productive alternatives in discipline.
using the 1-2-3 method consistently, the only children who will not respond are those with greater emotional or mental problems, and spanking is an even WORSE option for them. if you know kids who “need it” it is because their parents are NOT using effective discipline as a preventive method.
I was spanked as a child, but my parents never did it out of anger.
I think spanking works as a last resort; it lets children know that there is an option after “time out” or whatever stupid concept is in this week. Children shouldn’t fear their parents, but they should be afraid of them, if that makes any sense.
But enough about that.
Seconding this. I’ve seen the “counting” thing and the threat of “time out” openly ignored by kids too many times to count, and sometimes it just doesn’t work. But a threat of a spanking is an effective deterrent. That said, it can certainly be abused. I’d see it as the nuclear option of parenting, a tool of last resort. It’s a moment of pain and humiliation for the kid, sure, but if it’s that or the kid never learns not to run out into a busy intersection or not to jump off the roof because the worst that will happen for not listening is a “time out,” I’m inclined to suggest that the pain may be the way to go. I think most parents would prefer a slightly resentful child over a dead one.
Does it beget violence? If it was the standard of punishment, as some parents use it, perhaps it does. When I was in grade school, I knew many kids who could expect to a get daily “whoopin” for minor infractions. But this was usually a lesser symptom of a greater abuse by a violent parent. Many of those same kids were also occasionally (if not frequently) given actual beatings — real D.S.S. type of stuff — and that’s not the same context we’re talking about here.
There’s a great deal of difference between a standard spanking for a child that’s out of control by a loving parent who has run out of other options and, say, a kid getting his arm broken because his drunken stepfather threw him full-force against a coffee table for not calling him “Sir.”
[quote author="Steve Shanafelt” date="1215634556]I’ve seen the “counting” thing and the threat of “time out” openly ignored by kids too many times to count, and sometimes it just doesn’t work.
If it was ignored and didn’t work, it’s the fault of the parents for not applying it consistently and following through on the threat. The kids are just reacting to a known factor (which is hot air blowing).
perhaps in the short term, but it creates more bad behavior in the long run. it is the last resort of lazy parents ... they’re not thinking of long term effects, but just in the moment. not good for the kid OR the parent, as it will only get worse ...
[quote author="Steve Shanafelt” date="1215634556]That said, it can certainly be abused. I’d see it as the nuclear option of parenting, a tool of last resort. It’s a moment of pain and humiliation for the kid, sure, but if it’s that or the kid never learns not to run out into a busy intersection or not to jump off the roof because the worst that will happen for not listening is a “time out,” I’m inclined to suggest that the pain may be the way to go. I think most parents would prefer a slightly resentful child over a dead one.
and even better, the situation never happens when a child is properly disciplined ... effective discipline is a PREVENTIVE TEACHING, not a PUNITIVE VIOLENCE. a parent has only themselves to blame when the child’s behavior continues or gets worse in the long run if they are using smacking their kid as the deterrent. it simply doesn’t work. when kids know what to expect and are dealt with rationally, they behave rationally and these behavior crises simply don’t occur. if you see this happening, the child KNOWS that the parent is either not going to follow through, or they have reason to believe that the consequences are inconsistent. children are very empirical that way.
slightly resentful? no. violence breaks the trust of parent to child and as critical as that is in early life, it is even more critical later in life when the child is away from the parents, a free agent in the world and having to make their own decisions. violence does deep damage that typically is not apparent at the time of spanking, and can manifest in horrible ways later in childhood.
[quote author="Steve Shanafelt” date="1215634556]There’s a great deal of difference between a standard spanking for a child that’s out of control by a loving parent who has run out of other options and, say, a kid getting his arm broken because his drunken stepfather threw him full-force against a coffee table for not calling him “Sir.”
violence is not loving behavior; it is lazy behavior at its best and dangerous at its worst. it does not teach the child anything except that it’s okay to smack someone if you apologize later and rationalize yourself.
and it’s not just WRONG, it’s DUMB! most civilized countries have outlawed it and all credible professionals in child psychology warn against it.
perhaps in the short term, but it creates more bad behavior in the long run. it is the last resort of lazy parents ... they’re not thinking of long term effects, but just in the moment. not good for the kid OR the parent, as it will only get worse ...
I was spanked a handful of times as a kid — nuclear option stuff, I’m sure — and I never felt that it was because my mom was lazy. In fact, as a general statement made specific to my personal (and admittedly anecdotal) experience, I’d say that it’s a wildly unfair mischaracterization of the situation. In fact, my mom was a devoted single parent who worked full time just to keep a roof over my head. Lazy or abusive are the last things I’d call her.
She was (and is) a very bright woman, so on the handful of occasions where she did spank me, it really must have been because she felt there was no other viable alternative. I’m sure I didn’t like it at the time, but looking back, I can’t say I have any resentment about much of anything she did, spankings included.
And, to my recollection at least, things didn’t get worse after a spanking. Unless you count parental guilt and a sulking child, which was a short-lived situation in any case.
I also didn’t turn out violent, and I’ve always seen violence as a last resort in almost any situation. There are worse long-term effects.
i never said that the only long-term effect was violence (although that is certainly one of them). other negative effects of childhood violence are lowered self-esteem and relationship trust issues in adulthood. different kids respond differently, some aggressive, some not ...
i’m not here to psychoanalyze you or your mother, and i can certainly understand the frustration levels reached with a parent who is working and struggling with parenthood ... (i ain’t no saint) ... however well you may have turned out and however wonderful a person she may be, the traces of those choices still exist, however suppressed. i have yelled louder than i wanted to and said things that didn’t come out right to my kids too, and even though i don’t blame myself for doing it, i know it was not the best choice for me to make. one need not condemn the person in condemning the behavior. that’s an important distinction in any debate, especially one so personal.
if you’re happy, so be it ... but for me and my children, i want the BEST possible outcomes and won’t settle for less ... when i was pregnant, i avoided every known toxin, even though i knew that some of them were deemed safe by most. true, my baby wouldn’t have been born with three arms or missing appendages if i had a drink with caffeine or alcohol, but i would have always wondered if she had problems with math or seemed too shy in a crowd if those choices i made ("they’re not THAT bad") would have had effects no one could have foreseen. likewise now, i know she’d be okay if i slipped and smacked her or told her to shut up (which i also have never done), but then i’d always wonder later how my behavior affected her in small ways ... knowing what we do about the negative effects of spanking, why risk it?
and if one has the tools to avoid being in those high-drama situations to begin with, why not use them?
