Jason Bugg - 03 November 2008 06:24 AM

I find it insulting that Ralph thinks that if you choose not to serve in the military then you are somehow “less American” than someone who did serve.

That’s shit and you know it, Ralph.

I concur.

Ralph Roberts - 02 November 2008 12:32 PM

But this IS the issue, Tom ... “he did not choose to enlist” is just one of the many signs that Obama does not love this country.

I can see you’ve said that Ralph, and now I can see you saying, “because he did not choose to enlist does not mean he is unAmerican” in defense of some a lilly white, platinum tongued, little mountain boy of exceptional intelligence and talent that skyrocketed through his formative years on a greased expressway to his rightful seat in upper echelons of corporate kingdom.

Now let’s see, how many of the best and brightest in this country that are making the big bucks choose not to enlist? BTW Ralph, you, of all people, should know that enlistment is for NCO’s, commissions are for officers.  So if we look more closely at what you have said, we see you feel that because Obama did not become an enlisted soldier he is unAmerican.  Clearly Obama is and always has been of a caliber that would put him in the class of Colin Powell, fully worthy of a commission from congress.  Honestly Ralph one has to admit that Obama will and would rise to the upper echelons of any field he chooses to endeavor in.

As for the other signs you are reading, I can’t help but think they are like the Emperor’s new clothes, your just seeing something that isn’t there.

Joe the bear doesn’t seem to have an issue with age. He recently met Barack at one of the many well staffed Obama campaign centers throughout the county.

Joe the bear asks that everybody vote Obama for the change we need in America.

Jason Bugg - 03 November 2008 06:24 AM

I find it insulting that Ralph thinks that if you choose not to serve in the military then you are somehow “less American” than someone who did serve.

That’s shit and you know it, Ralph.

No, I think I’m being misread on that ... certainly millions of people serve their country quite honorably without joining the military.

I was not talking about them or you or your dog Buster, I was talking about Obama and saying that’s just one of the signs that makes me uncomfortable with him and more inclined toward McCain.

You guys tend toward personal attacks when someone disagrees with you (not you, Bugg, you are a saint and a great big cuddly mountain bear).

I find myself able to form an opinion based on the facts. In the army, I was trained in Intelligence, the art of taking a great deal of info from usually UNRELIABLE sources (kinda like the mass media) and paring away the fluff to find useful truth. Since ‘useful truth’ saves lives in combat, much emphasis was placed on getting it right. And for the past several decades, I’ve been a writer and writers—at least good writers—seek the truth far more intensely than even Intelligence folks and have to wade through a lot wider BS to get there.

Also, to tie it in with ‘age’ ... with age comes wisdom or at least the ability to realize when people and organizations are trying to sway your opinion with a bunch of crap tossed on the wall and expecting you to believe whatever sticks. It may stick but it still smells.

So, here’s the main conclusion:

Over the past several election cycles, both the Democrats and the Republicans have chosen FLAWED candidates.

In the last two elections the slightly (and I emphasize slightly, as in marginally) less flawed candidate has won.

In this election, John McCain is the marginally less flawed candidate because he has some experience and has undeniably made great sacrifice for his county. Which by no means qualifies him per se to be president but is, again marginally, better than Obama.

What this means:

No matter WHO wins WE, the people, lose because we let the two major parties foist these dufus candidates on us.

And you can’t tell me I’m wrong because I’m old enough to know better.

Ralph Roberts - 03 November 2008 10:59 AM

No, I think I’m being misread on that

No, you’re not. This is what you said:

“he did not choose to enlist” is just one of the many signs that Obama does not love this country.

You’re saying that his not being in the military is a significant factor in determining whether or not he loves his country, yes?
Not only are you not listing any other “signs” pointing towards his disdain for America, you’re not even willing to defend what you said. Either back it up or take it back, but don’t dodge the question with red herrings about your intelligence experience and age. Old people spout bull too.
With all due respect.

I do have a problem with Ralph’s insistence that both parties have put up flawed candidates. The only ones we know are flawed are the ones that have proven they are flawed. W Bush clearly proved he was flawed and is now the leading candidate for worst president of all time. His PROVEN follower John McCain is flawed for not having better sense than to follow a bad direction. So when you talk about flaws and what we know about candidates. We know one party has proven themselves unworthy of leading our great country and they have proven it by their actions. We have no idea how Gore would have performed since he didn’t get into the white house. Barak Obama has proven he is unlike what we know to be the current leadership and I find that a good thing.

If you’re old enough to know better how come you don’t?  Sincerely, I am all about age and wisdom but there is more to being a president than wisdom.  You have to think on your feet and multitask like crazy, both characteristics I fail to observe in McCain. Really, the point I would like to make in regards to your thinking you enjoy some elevated status due to your life experiences, well friend so do I only I recognize my limitations.  Do you?

As for Obama, not concerned about what he hasn’t done.  It’s about trusting his capabilities. I don’t trust McCain’s capabilities, even as far as surviving in office 4 years.  Had he taken Romney on as a veep I would not be so concerned.  I don’t like Mitt’s politics but I trust the man’s abilities.  I do not trust Ms Palin in any way shape of form.

Clarification.  My whole life I have always wondered about people who speak with such authority as if they actually know what they are talking about. I soon came to realize it was simply an error in the language they used.  They were not, in fact, as sure of themselves as they may have appeared.  Some experiences tend to make us think of ourselves as something special.  This may be a thinly disguised case of disillusion thinking. Personally I accept nobody as an authority, not even myself.

I find myself able to form an opinion based on the facts. In the army, I was trained in Intelligence, the art of taking a great deal of info from usually UNRELIABLE sources (kinda like the mass media) and paring away the fluff to find useful truth. Since ‘useful truth’ saves lives in combat, much emphasis was placed on getting it right.

I did the same thing in the Forest Service as an Incident Commander on forest fires. Gathered data from a myriad of sources and created action plans to achieve various objectives while keeping my personnel happy and safe. Before the age of 30…. So what? That doesn’t make me any more capable than Jason Bugg or Bobaloo or Carrie at winnowing out the truth….

Some presidents who never served in the military:

John Adams
Abraham Lincoln
Woodrow Wilson
FDR
Bill Clinton

Also, to tie it in with ‘age’ ... with age comes wisdom or at least the ability to realize when people and organizations are trying to sway your opinion with a bunch of crap tossed on the wall and expecting you to believe whatever sticks. It may stick but it still smells.

A brief list of “un-wise” CEOS:

Richard J. Dugas Jr.    38     Pulte Homes
Michael S. Dell   39   Dell
H. Lawrence Culp Jr.    41   Danaher
Scott T. Ford   41   Alltel
David Simon   42   Simon Property Group
Richard D. Kincaid   42   Equity Office Properties
Charles Bell   43   McDonalds    
Jeffrey A. Rich   43   Affiliated Computer
Barry S. Sternlicht   43   Starwood Hotels And Resorts  
Martin L. Flanagan   43   Franklin Resources    
David P. Steiner   43   Waste Management

Teddy Roosevelt became president at age 42…

JFK was 44…..

wow, all younger than Obama…..seems like I’m doing a fairly decent job realizing that someone is “trying to sway your opinion with a bunch of crap tossed on the wall and expecting you to believe whatever sticks.”

And you can’t tell me I’m wrong because I’m old enough to know better.

It seems to me that sometimes age does not equal wisdom or maturity….

Lately we’ve been noting the numerous “senior moments” experienced by John McCain in public appearances.  Is he really mentally fit enough to lead this nation if by some small miracle he prevails on Tuesday? I have serious doubts his brain is capable of handling the stress.

As much as I dislike McCain, I don’t believe that his mental faculties are impaired. His judgment, yes, but his mental faculties? No. Does that mean his age should not be a factor? Unfortunately, given his choice of running mate and health history, it is.

tatuaje - 03 November 2008 12:13 PM

Some presidents who never served in the military:

John Adams
Abraham Lincoln
Woodrow Wilson
FDR
Bill Clinton

 

Abraham Lincoln did serve, see http://www.geocities.com/old_lead/abe.htm .

FDR was Assistant Secretary of the Navy from 1913-1920 including all of World War I.

John Adams served as chairman of the Continental Congress’s Board of War (1776-1777), making him the simultanous equivalent of today’s Secretary of Defense and Chairman of Senate Armed Services Committee.

You are correct about Bill Clinton and Woodrow Wilson, and you missed a few others like Taft, Hoover, Harding, and Coolidge. But the overwhelming majority did serve.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Presidents_by_military_service for complete info about the military service of our presidents (the above info came from there).

As to all the other verbiage in this topic, I have made my statements and taken my stand. I have no need to defend it further. I am voting for John McCain.

Ralph, I love you but I think you’d vote for McCain even if he shot a three year old in the head on live television.

By the way, I wasn’t attacking you. I was attacking the statement you made. You are still my number one cuddle bear.

Jason Bugg - 03 November 2008 12:46 PM

Ralph, I love you but I think you’d vote for McCain even if he shot a three year old in the head on live television.

By the way, I wasn’t attacking you. I was attacking the statement you made. You are still my number one cuddle bear.

Big hugs, Jason, big hugs.

Politicians take notice: this is how all debates should end.  If Obama played my role and McCain played Ralph’s role (with surprise appearances by Biden playing TomH’s part, Palin reenacting Travlah and Joe the not really a Plummer reading Cullen Anderson’s parts) you’d have REAL political theater.

Jason Bugg - 03 November 2008 12:55 PM

Politicians take notice: this is how all debates should end.  If Obama played my role and McCain played Ralph’s role (with surprise appearances by Biden playing TomH’s part, Palin reenacting Travlah and Joe the not really a Plummer reading Cullen Anderson’s parts) you’d have REAL political theater.

Why thank you Jason, I really identify with Joe.  How did you ever guess? 

“A man I’m proud to call my friend. A man who will be the next President of the United States — Barack America!”

Jason Bugg - 03 November 2008 12:55 PM

Politicians take notice: this is how all debates should end.  If Obama played my role and McCain played Ralph’s role (with surprise appearances by Biden playing TomH’s part, Palin reenacting Travlah and Joe the not really a Plummer reading Cullen Anderson’s parts) you’d have REAL political theater.

Speaking of, where is travelah these days? He tends to get dogpiled here on the forums when it came to political stuff, but I liked having him around to represent the non-prevailing view.

Maybe avoiding having bold predictions like this one thrown back at him?

travelah - 29 August 2008 12:41 PM

Obama just lost the Presidency (imo) adn the Democrats have only themselves to blame.