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Should we transport nuclear materials through urban areas?
 
Reply #31 • Dec 17, 2008  05:00 PM
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The (PFKaP) - 17 December 2008 04:28 PM

Why is there the assumption that we can or should continue to consume power in the way we have for the past 50 years?

If we are seriously discussing the implications of transporting nuclear waste, why not first ask if we need to have the capacity to provide the power to let us surf the net all day and power our air conditioners and dishwasher whenever we want.

It sure is necessary.  You will never ever get people to cut back on demand unless forced to.  The needed power can be provided with other sources, even solar.  Seen communities where the power company has installed collectors on private homes and get a net feed back.

Hey, it’s like sex, once you’ve had a taste, could you quit?

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Reply #32 • Dec 17, 2008  05:29 PM
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glolady - 17 December 2008 04:14 PM

It is not if but when.

Everyone gets up in arms about 9-11 or Katrina, why were they not warned?

Because people do Not want to believe until their bubble is pricked.

Don’t you see that it’s a completely different situation? We know there are solar flares, and we know that they regularly interfere with things like short-wave radio. No one is saying that it’s not a concern. But WHEN the sun does eventually fry us—as I’ve said, it’s already boiling off our atmosphere, so it’ll happen even without proton storms—there’s really nothing we can do about it. It’s also only a matter of time before another massive asteroid hits the planet, much like what happened before the dinosaurs went extinct, and many, many times before that. We’ll also go into another ice age at some point, too. All of these things are true.

It’s not a matter of people not wanting to believe—they do believe, and it’s a CERTAINTY that the sun will eventually roast the Earth—it’s a matter of it being more-or-less irrelevant, as it’s completely out of our hands. It’s not like Katrina, which was both preventable and badly handled at the time, because the equivalent suggestion to yours would be “Let’s close up New Orleans because a storm may hit one day.” It’s not like 9/11 in any way, unless you mean we should all stop using air travel because planes can be flown into buildings.

But that doesn’t mean that we can’t build safer nuclear reactors with this possibility in mind. You say Solar flares a real concern? Fine, let’s put enough shielding around those computers and set the grids up in such a way that even if a MASSIVE solar flare swings our way, happens to hit America in the process (it’s only the side facing the sun that gets hit, after all) and knocks out everything, at least it won’t cause a total meltdown. That should be relatively simple to do, and it may already be in place. After all, we’re talking about radiation, and I’d imagine that the control rooms and computers of nuclear plants are pretty well shielded from absurdly high levels of radiation to start with.

Just because the nuclear reactors are now safe in this scenario doesn’t mean that everything else won’t fall apart, however. Computers everywhere will fry. Cars, planes, cell phones and everything else with a computer for a brain—even DVD players—will also stop working. Hospital computers won’t work anymore. Millions of people will die from the resulting chaos, and that’s not counting the millions who will die from the cellular damage caused by the protons themselves.

Like I said, it’s a doomsday scenario. Y2K meets Hiroshima, if you like. What nuclear plants are doing at the time will be more or less irrelevant. Even if most of them go into total meltdown, it’ll be a few million more deaths on a tally sheet of hundreds of millions of deaths.

And it still has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand, which is—assuming we’re going to keep using nuclear power—should we transport nuclear waste through urban areas?

There is enough FREE energy and technology to make such. It is the GREED in the Profit that keeps the pig suckling.

That’s true, although not at our current standard of living. Let’s say that we took all of the existing solar panels and wind farms and whatnot, and only used that for energy in the future. Nuclear was out, as was fossil fuels. We could all live in unheated, electricity-free homes, but we’d be in the cold and the dark. We could all go no farther than we could walk or bike, and most of us would have to move back out to the country to become farmers and never bother with things like stores. (There’d be nothing to buy since the factories were closed, and no way to get it since trains and big-rigs use fossil fuels.)

Maybe if we all had a solar panel to our name—something I’m not sure is even the case now in terms of supply—we could at least have a few light bulbs or something. That’s an extreme example, but it we were dedicated to using existing alternative energy alone, I’m guessing that this is roughly the lifestyle we’d be talking about.

But who wants that?

Assuming we don’t take such a drastic move, and simply move towards a more energy-efficient and less polluting future, there’s not enough energy to supply what we need today to live in the kind of society we have without something along the lines of nuclear or fossil fuels. Wind and solar aren’t up to it yet, although I have hopes they will be soon enough. But we’re talking about decades of transition at best—probably more like centuries—and during that time we’ll still need energy just to keep society stable, much less allow for innovation.

Once we’ve got wind farms and solar arrays that are meeting our needs, I say we shut down the reactors and the coal plants. But not until.

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Reply #33 • Dec 17, 2008  05:38 PM
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Once we’ve got wind farms and solar arrays that are meeting our needs, I say we shut down the reactors and the coal plants. But not until.

But it would take far longer to build more nuclear reactors or whatever than to build those wind farms (which are problematic as well) and solar arrays.

So why build them at all?

 
Reply #34 • Dec 17, 2008  07:06 PM
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The (PFKaP) - 17 December 2008 05:38 PM

Once we’ve got wind farms and solar arrays that are meeting our needs, I say we shut down the reactors and the coal plants. But not until.

But it would take far longer to build more nuclear reactors or whatever than to build those wind farms (which are problematic as well) and solar arrays.

So why build them at all?

You make a good point, but I’m not sure it’s entirely accurate. How long would it take to build the size of wind farm that could create the same amount of electricity as a nuclear reactor? I mean, you’d have to build MASSIVE wind farms—tens of thousands of acres at least, I’d guess—just to create the amount of energy produced by one nuclear reactor or coal plant. And the amount of energy you’d be creating would be variable, based on how strong the wind was blowing on any given day. There are ways of offsetting that, of course, but my point is that it’s not putting out the controllable kind of energy that a nuclear plant would.

In time, it’ll probably be easier to create a wind/sun/wave-driven energy framework for the country, but I think it’s impractical to try to do so immediately. Micro-nuclear reactors, however, could change that. Toshiba has a model slated for launch next month, and it’s already planned for use in a remote town in Alaska that currently uses diesel.

Twenty foot long by six foot wide, the reactors produce 200kW of energy and run themselves: the entire thing is manufactured with the fuel within, and when it runs out, they can just send a truck to pick it up. ... Unlike traditional nuclear reactors the new micro reactor uses no control rods to initiate the reaction. The new revolutionary technology uses reservoirs of liquid lithium-6, an isotope that is effective at absorbing neutrons. The Lithium-6 reservoirs are connected to a vertical tube that fits into the reactor core. The whole whole process is self sustaining and can last for up to 40 years, producing electricity for only 5 cents per kilowatt hour, about half the cost of grid energy.

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Reply #35 • Dec 17, 2008  09:21 PM
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That is not going to be placed close to the fault line is it?

There are patents and products out there that could be utilized…. I say…. call them out.

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Reply #36 • Dec 18, 2008  12:48 AM
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glolady - 17 December 2008 09:21 PM

That is not going to be placed close to the fault line is it?

There are patents and products out there that could be utilized…. I say…. call them out.

That particular one won’t be, but plenty of them will be, I’d bet. These are small reactors with relatively small amounts of radioactive material inside. They’re a lot less likely to be damaged by things like earthquakes, and even if they worst-case scenario happens and one cracks open, the area actually damaged by it would be quite small.

What patents are you talking about specifically?

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Reply #37 • Dec 18, 2008  01:02 AM
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She doesn’t know.

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Reply #38 • Dec 18, 2008  04:11 AM
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The (PFKaP) - 17 December 2008 05:38 PM

But it would take far longer to build more nuclear reactors or whatever than to build those wind farms (which are problematic as well) and solar arrays.

So why build them at all?

We should build them, as long as we can responsibly meet our long term power needs and desires with a combination of conservation/more efficient use and a sped up transition to “greener” power production methods. Unless we insist on relying on fossil fuels, there is no need to revert to the “dark ages” before electricity.

Conservation/increased efficiency of use is very easy to achieve. For example, the home I just built for my family requires 40% less heating energy than current code and HVAC heat load calculations predict, and I did not use ANY fancy new technologies…I just paid attention to how I installed my thermal envelope (and I’ve never built a house before). We also installed energy star appliances, low water use fixtures, and compact florescent bulbs. If a novice can do it the professionals certainly should be able to (if we can get them to put responsible building practices before maximizing profits that is).

The cost of solar has also dropped significantly over the last several years. If that trend continues solar will be a cost effective and affordable standard feature to add to all new homes, and a cost effective retrofit for existing homes (we hope to add solar in a couple years).

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Reply #39 • Dec 18, 2008  09:39 AM
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Problem I see with this safety report is, no mention of a terrorist attack involving high explosives. Has nobody considered this possibility? 

Designed To Ensure Safety

Each shipping container is designed to maintain its integrity under normal transportation conditions and during hypothetical accident conditions. The designs must demonstrate protection against radiological release to the environment under the following hypothetical accident conditions:

  * A 9 meter (30-foot) free fall on to an unyielding surface

  * A puncture test allowing the container to free-fall 1 meter (40 inches) onto a steel rod 15 centimeters (6 inches) in diameter

  * A 30-minute, all-engulfing fire at 800 degrees Celsius (1475 degrees Fahrenheit)

  * An 8-hour immersion under 0.9 meter (3 feet) of water.
    Compliance with this sequential series of tests may be demonstrated by computer modeling, scale-model or full-scale tests. An additional hypothetical accident condition is required for spent fuel in which an undamaged package must be subjected to a one-hour immersion under 200 meters (655 feet) of water.

Planning for Routine Shipments

Routing is an important issue because it is related to a variety of OCRWM activities including advance notification, emergency response preparedness, inspection and enforcement, and risk management. Until such time as a Federal receiving facility is designated pursuant to existing or future legislation, specific routes and number of shipments cannot be determined. Once shipments of spent nuclear fuel begin, the Department of Energy will follow existing DOT regulations which generally limit shipments to either the interstate highway systems, a state-designated alternative route, or both. Rail shipments will be routed using current rail practices.

What If An Accident Occurs?

Radioactive waste transport is controlled by the comprehensive regulatory framework previously described and has an excellent safety record. Because there is a chance that an accident involving a radioactive shipment could occur, emergency response plans will be in place to handle situations that could arise. The key to effective emergency response is quality training and preparation. The DOE will provide technical and financial assistance for training public safety officials through whose jurisdictions the Department transports spent nuclear fuel and high-level radioactive waste. As the Department develops the Federal waste management system, it is committed to providing safe shipments of spent nuclear fuel across the nation’s highways and railroads.

http://www.ocrwm.doe.gov/transport/index.shtml

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Reply #40 • Dec 18, 2008  12:26 PM
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TomH - 18 December 2008 09:39 AM

Problem I see with this safety report is, no mention of a terrorist attack involving high explosives. Has nobody considered this possibility? 

I’m just guessing, but I’d say it’s because they don’t want to broadcast their security measures to the world (or you), thus giving said terrorists a plan of attack.

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Reply #41 • Dec 18, 2008  12:31 PM
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bobaloo - 18 December 2008 12:26 PM
TomH - 18 December 2008 09:39 AM

Problem I see with this safety report is, no mention of a terrorist attack involving high explosives. Has nobody considered this possibility? 

I’m just guessing, but I’d say it’s because they don’t want to broadcast their security measures to the world (or you), thus giving said terrorists a plan of attack.

I’m with bobaloo on this. Of course they’ve planned for it, but they’re not going to broadcast their plan of action.

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Reply #42 • Dec 18, 2008  12:36 PM
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Steve Shanafelt - 18 December 2008 12:31 PM
bobaloo - 18 December 2008 12:26 PM
TomH - 18 December 2008 09:39 AM

Problem I see with this safety report is, no mention of a terrorist attack involving high explosives. Has nobody considered this possibility? 

I’m just guessing, but I’d say it’s because they don’t want to broadcast their security measures to the world (or you), thus giving said terrorists a plan of attack.

I’m with bobaloo on this. Of course they’ve planned for it, but they’re not going to broadcast their plan of action.

I’ll third that

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Reply #43 • Dec 18, 2008  01:10 PM
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With all due respect to all you fine people, just guessing is the operative word.  My thinking has it that there are a whole raft of holes in our security, this being one of them.

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Reply #44 • Dec 18, 2008  04:18 PM
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TomH - 18 December 2008 01:10 PM

With all due respect to all you fine people, just guessing is the operative word.  My thinking has it that there are a whole raft of holes in our security, this being one of them.

You mean to say you dont think the NSA is entirely effective? That someone could fly a commercial airliner through the holes in our de-fences?

 
Reply #45 • Dec 18, 2008  04:29 PM
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TomH - 18 December 2008 01:10 PM

With all due respect to all you fine people, just guessing is the operative word.  My thinking has it that there are a whole raft of holes in our security, this being one of them.

With all due respect to you, you don’t know any better than we do. When the fine folks that provide high level security start broadcasting their defense and security measures, let me know.

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