If you replace the words “Buncombe County Sheriff’s Department” with “gang of armed thugs” this story makes a lot more sense. I am absolutely disgusted by this and I hope that members of the Sheriff’s Dept. who are ashamed by this behavior come forward and help rid our home of these miscreants. It is almost as if Bobby “we buried the guns” Medford was still running things.

Since moving to Asheville two years ago this act of police brutality and stifling of our most fundamental rights is without a doubt the most stunning news story I’ve heard yet. Makes me wonder about this “liberal haven” we supposedly live in. The officers involved should be suspended without pay pending investigation. But in the mean time, we ought to be burning flags in our front yards...They can’t beat us all. We’re seventy percent of the country.

Don’t forget that you can DIGG and del.icio.us this story by clicking on the icons on the “Comments” bar directly below the article.

I send out a call to all Asheville residents to peaceably petition this action of injustice and show their outrage to this infringement of rights by hanging their own flags upside down in their yards, balconys, porches or fences!

We must stand collectively - for we must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately!

(A repost...from AC-T 7-26-07)

by Twain

I watched WLOS News 13 Wednesday at 11PM. The lead story about the upside down flag was reported in such a way as to indicate that a National Guard soldier was offended...and called ‘a friend’ who was a Buncombe County Deputy. The news story said the Deputy then went to the Kuhn’s home. As I watched the news...my first reaction was outrage at a rogue officer and I felt certain that a deputy WOULD NOT act alone...without the authority of a senior officer or Sheriff Duncan.

Now...having read the updated Citizen- Times story...and the many comments of my fellow viewers and readers...I have no idea what transpired. So...answers are needed...and this situation DEMANDS them.

Questions:

Did the Deputy act alone? Is there a record of a dispatch call to send HIM specifically? Did a senior Deputy in the BCSD authorize the action?

Did APD report the previous incident about a ‘distress signal?’ Is there an official record of the police visit? Did Chief Hogan’s senior staff review the report?

The U.S. Constitution is more sacred than the U.S. Flag and the most sacred amendment to our constitution is the FIRST.

Our FREEDOM OF SPEECH is everything. If we lose our right to protest...if we lose the right to say what is on our minds...if we lose the right to be free from our own government’s harassment...we have lost what millions have fought and died for.

Since the horrific tragedies of September 11, 2001 we have seen a steady erosion of our freedoms. The Government has justified the illegal abrogation of the U.S Constitution and the denial of Habeus Corpus rights in the name of ‘homeland security’.

That sacred document that our ancestors fought and died for...those freedoms and rights that have been abridged in our name by Washington politicians who ignore the very document they claim to be defending...the very essence of the reason that The United States of America has long been looked to as a ‘Shining Beacon of Hope’ throughout the world...is being threatened by those who claim to be protecting us.

At what cost?

The Asheville flag case is not a question of RIGHT and LEFT...it is a case of RIGHT and WRONG. If our Founding Fathers were alive today...I believe they would side with those who value FREEDOM above all else.

Our police officers and deputies do difficult and dangerous work. The facts may prove that the deputy in this case acted properly. However...as the story has been thus far reported...my best guess is that emotions became heated...and the situation was poorly handled.

I hope we can all agree that the right to protest our government’s actions...regardless of one’s political philosophy… and the right to be civilly disobedient...regardless of what is being protested...is as precious as life itself.

For all who wish to get involed email .... Ask to be part of this movement and they will reply back with instructions.
This is an Asheville movement that maybe become national. 
Peace is the Answer.

JBo, great idea.  On Brevard Rd we have already planned to start our protest on Saturday...upside-down flags up and down the road.  It would be great for others to do the same.

I’ll be there for it.

Later that night....

A P.S. from the northern mountains:

We should all thank our lucky stars...and stripes...that now....after more than 550 posts...the supreme value and importance of the FIRST AMENDMENT has been proven by voices on all sides of this contentious subject.

For those of you who have railed against those who have spoken with passion in support of the right to civil disobedience...just imagine a country where your point of view is silenced by governmental fiat.

Never in MY country...and not in MY name.

FREE SPEECH...NOW AND FOREVER.

Hopefully all of you Mountain Express Readers have learned a valuable lesson about listening to the police and doing what you are supposed to do… then fight it in court. There is no reason to not accept a citation and then go to court or the civil process section and see it weighed and measured. The will of the people made the law and we must all respect authority. I was born and raised here and all of ridiculous liberals have made it a royal mess. Much like the mess you came from-which is why you left there. The National Guard Armory made the initial complaint and the Sheriff’s Department followed up. We complained beliving in respecting the flag. Those of you who have never served in the military or who’s life has had no real signifigance will never know that importance. Have some spine. There is no police state, just a lot of tired republicans and citizens who are frustrated with all of you medicaid or trust-fund whiners who will never know sacrifice. See you on the streets liberal… You know what we look like. Face it.

Twain:

Here! Here!

I say Bravo to the Kuhn’s for trying to stand up for their rights in the face of a charged up policeman.  And for the commenters who are bold enough to speak out for what they think is right. 

Now, let’s get some answers.

To Eric:  Despite how you may feel about the way one treats the flag there is a clear body of law regarding the criminality of such acts.  In Texas v. Johnson and US v. Eichman the Supreme Court have declared that even to the point of burning the flag that “desecration” is protected speech so the law is unenforcible.  This case doesn’t even seem to meet the requirements of the “incidental” limitations that might make the law enforcible.  As for just accepting the citation, perhaps, but I would argue that if the witnesses are correct then the family was right to fear the actions of the officer and tried to lock themselves in their home.  If so, the officers actions could be seen as excessive and a sign of the emotional response to the situation and not the sign of a professional law enforcement officer.  As for “the will of the people making the law” it is true most laws are majority rules.  However, the founders were smart enough to protect minority views and so the laws are not entirely decided by the people’s will.  Whether you respect the flag is not justification to force others to respect it in your way.  I view protest, including using the flag as a great honor to those who served under it, as they fought to protect a vital and living freedom not a freedom to be protected and never used.

No matter how many times you people want to beat this dead horse ...he still aint gonna run…

The Deputy stopped at their home to discuss the situation with the flag.

They complied by taking it down.

The Deputy then asked for ID.

The couple DID NOT CO-OPERATE ...

THEY FLED INTO THE HOME AND LOCKED THE DOOR.

I do not care of the Deputy pulled the door off the hinges with his car.....those 2 people IGNORED the Deputy and HIS REQUEST for ID.

The ACLU WILL NOT TAKE THIS CASE .....NOTHING WAS VIOLATED.

THESE PEOPLE NEED TO MOVE TO SAN FRANCISCO IF THEY WANT TO ACT LIKE THIS....

END OF STORY…

And for all you people that think this Deputy should be fired.....think again....

Once we get the United States Military involved......the tide will turn away from this couple and it will be directed to giving this Deputy a commendation for a JOB WELL DONE.

If they would like to try and pursue this in criminal or civil court.....it would be a rediculous waste of time and money.

This lawsuit is destined for the DUSTBIN AB INITIO

I was publishing under BuncCyBapt and cited plenty of caselaw which makes flag desecration perfectly legal in the USA.  Therefore, the arrest based on a void NC law was illegal. The cop is a rogue, plain and simple, and BCSD has its own attorney to advise it on such questions. Breaking and entering the home of the Kuhns was illegal. 

Then my messages started to be censored and last night, all the messages of everyone—at least on my screen—were cluttered with clusters of four asterisks surrounding every word, making the words almost impossible to read.  I reckon it’s Topix’s, Al Neuharth’s, and Gannett’s method of censorship.  Either that or I need to register or there’s a glitch.

I believe the participants in that flawed and ambivalent forum learned that the First Amendment is the shining beacon of liberty no one, particularly not our government, should desecrate, not a meaningless graven image like a silly flag corrupted by theocratic BS we were taught as children to brainlessly revere and bow down to.  My Constitution and Bill of Rights stand for this republic, not a flag.  The Third Reich was into flags, but no guaranteed personal liberties.  Hitler suspended the German Constitution after the fire at the Reichstag, an event Bush fantasizes about and salivates over, you can be sure.

My compliments to the Kuhns and to their bravery for standing up to the growing fascism in this endangered republic.

Davido, the deputy requested their ID, they do NOT have to comply with that request.  If you notice, the Kuhns even asked if they were being arrested and the deputy said no.  You even said it in your post “asked for ID” and “his REQUEST for ID.” You do not have to provide ID to an officer unless you are being seized or arrested.  The officer has to make it clear that he is seizing or arresting you, it seems clear to me that he was doing neither.

If you want to bend over and submit to government thugs, be my guest.  But don’t project your lack of backbone onto the rest of us.

Asheville has the attention of much of the world.

Bele Chere will draw 350,000 or more...yet the more important news from Asheville is about the very essence of why we are who we are...as a people ...and as a country.

The U.S. Constitution and the First Amendment are our lifeline to FREEDOM. Everyone benefits from the protection our laws provide.

I would hope that...as we celebrate our festival...with tens of thousands of guests in our mountains...and hundreds of thousands following the story of a war protest in our fair city...we all take a collective deep breath and thank our lucky stars...and stripes… that: THE RULE OF LAW AND THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH protects each of us...and all of us.

When you see your friends and neighbors displaying an upside down flag today and tomorrow and next week...or when you see a relative or descendant of a proud veteran of our armed services flying our flag proudly ‘right side up’...remember...it is the same FIRST AMENDMENT that protects all of us...and our right to speak our minds and protest or support whatever we choose...and live safe and secure inside our homes...protected from governmental excesses along with ‘all enemies...foreign and domestic.’

It comes down to one question....do you believe in The Golden Rule?

DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU.

We are all one...and our FREEDOM is NOT negotiable.
Respect the rights of all to voice their minds and be glad you live in the USA.

Happy Bele Chere 2007.

Let me preface this by saying that I think that the Kuhns were wronged by this, and that I am completely on their side.

With that being said, I don’t think that this was an act of fascism so much as it was an act of an overzealous sheriff. This guy was probably thinking less about suppressing the right to free speech and more about stopping someone who didn’t agree with him. Now this doesn’t make his alleged actions excusable, but I think that is a better way to think of what he did.

Deputy Scarborough is a criminal who committed several crimes and several torts. I hope he’s incarcerated, terminated, and goes bankrupt from the lawsuits to follow. 

I’d also like to say that the shame of Scarborough should not be transmuted onto the city of Asheville nor the Ashevill police dept.

This is 1 bad apple.

Wow, hopefully this isn’t representative of law enforcement in North Carolina. I’ve visited that state a dozen times and love it there.  This man’s Constitutional and Civil rights were CLEARLY violated. That sheriff’s deputy should not only be fired, he should go to prison.

This coming from the south, where the single greatest affront to american national unity, the flag of the confederacy, is flown with pride.

I’d rather take an upside down stars and stripes over the confederate flag anyway.

Amazing, they support and have the right to fly the symbol of the greatest threat and act of treason this country has ever known--Which in my book is the greatest desecration of what OUR flag stands for--but you can’t turn a US flag upside down in protest.

Makes about as much sense as can be expected from anyone or anything south of the Mason Dixon.

“YOU LOST, GET OVER IT.”

If they want to honor the flag, make all flag protest legal or at least suppress the rebel flag.

You can only desecrate something if it’s sacred.  I don’t know about the deputy’s religion, but in my religion flags belong to Caesar, not God, and in the US Constitution, the government agrees not to establish any religion, so the flag isn’t sacred to them either. 

Also in the US, police can’t demand ID unless you’re doing some regulated activity like driving, and any police officer who’s had any training about legal arrest procedures knows that.  The Supreme Court was real clear about that in a case involving walking around while black, and the black lawyer who’d been harassed was quite successful in suing the cops.  But even if this deputy wasn’t paying attention in cop school, or was hoping he could get away with exceeding his authority, anybody with half a clue should have been able to figure out that he shouldn’t go kicking somebody’s door down and attacking them just because they’re not cooperating.  And anybody who loses his temper enough to not keep track of the half a clue he’s got has no business working for a Public Safety organization.

I’ve served and I’ve been on two combat rotations… not that that specifically gives me more or less rights than any other citizen.  Do not use my name when justifying abhorrent conduct by these civil servants.  Police officers and sherrif’s deputies are all human beings and they too are capable of making mistakes.  A badge doesn’t give them the right to anything beyond what the law allows.  What may seem a reasonable request for ID is not supported by the law.  We do not live in a country that requires that we comply with whatever request officers make.  They must have a legal foundation.  If the facts, as portrayed by this article, turn out to be true, the investigation should conclude that jail time is appropriate for these offending officers.  I’m a Republican and I disagree with their message, but the fundamental rights that I shed blood, sweat, and tears for do not change with political affiliation or message voiced.  I probably would have non-violently refused to cooperate and forced them to resort to further violence.  I think that (despite my hatred for them) the ACLU will take the case (or some other civil rights law organization), and they should.  The sherrif’s department should take a long hard look at how they handle situations like this and their obviously negligent training regime that produced these officers.

To all the officers sacrificing their time and sometimes lives in an effort to keep us safe locally and to all the men and women who sacrifice to keep us safe globally - keep up the good work and keep your head down.  You are doing the harder right.  Don’t let the weakness of a few, who take the easier wrong, detract from your efforts.  I appreciate the gift of your service.

Go get them hippies! I’ve seen tons of episodes of COPS and the culprits never admit to any wrongdoing. Also if COPS are arresting someone, they will always ask their friends to leave or go back in their houses.

Go to link below to see someone really defiling the American flag.

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagbush.htm

You know, this is one of the more frustrating comment threads I’ve ever seen.  I think that both sides are probably covering their rears, and that while there was misconduct on the deputy’s side, that there was also probably more to the actions by the protester than we are seeing.

Also, we have some military-like guys coming on and playing soldier, who obviously don’t understand at all what they’re “fighting” for (hint:  It’s for the right of these people to do *exactly what they did*) and wave the “service to their country” around like some kind of token that suddenly makes their views right and proper.

What probably happened was this:  The deputy got overzealous and was going to arrest them, but the door got slammed in his face before he did, so he yells “you’re under arrest” and forces his way in.  Of course, after he does that, then anything they do past that is resisting arrest, regardless of whether he’s right or not.

The military guys commenting here obviously don’t understand what or why what they did is wrong - although I wouldn’t expect any more than that - and the people who say the policeman was “rogue” and acting without justification probably don’t know the whole story either and are reacting in a kneejerk manner.

Makes me glad I live in California and not there.

Davido, you should become a police officer. you’re just the kinda guy they’re looking for.

Go Mark, go Mark, go, go, go Mark! Rock on!

I hope he sues.

http://www.buncombecounty.org/governing/depts/Sheriff/

Van Duncan
Sheriff
(828) 250-4503

Buncombe County Sheriff’s Office
202 Haywood St.
Asheville, North Carolina 28801

I can’t believe anyone on here is defending those cops.  most cops are arrogant a’holes who believe the laws apply to everyone but them.  The offending officer should be fired and charges should be filed against him for breaking and entering, vandalism, false imprisonment, assault with a deadly weapon, and falsifying a police report among other things.  But IA will probably clear him of any wrong doing because if your not with Bush and his Nazi regime you are against him.  Remember that folks.  He said it himself.

Eric: why are you so hateful to your fellow man? 

Don’t you realize that at least a third to half of the population are not likely to share of all of your views about politics?  Is that a reason for you to hate a third or half of all Americans?  Your message comes across to me sounding like you are asking to have a physical fight in the streets with people.  Why do you want to physically fight with so many fellow Americans?  Why are you so hateful?

Doesn’t it make more sense to talk about these political disagreements than to actually physically attack people over these things?

Those of you who think you don’t have to provide an officer with ID upon request are dead wrong. Filing to do so is grounds for arrest.
See Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada. In which a Federal court held that under the rubric of Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968), the minimal intrusion on a suspect’s privacy and the legitimate need of law enforcement officers to quickly dispel suspicion that an individual is engaged in criminal activity justified asking a suspect to identify himself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_v._Sixth_Judicial_District_Court_of_Nevada

By running into the house, slamming the door on the officer’s hand they guaranteed arrest. They were arrested for resisting arrest and assaulting an officer. Those charges will stick and the ACLU won’t touch it unless they get charged with desecrating a flag - which they weren’t.
When will people learn?

Looks like the couple were right.
Billy Jack said, “When the Law breaks the law then there is no law.”

If this story is correct, we have multiple witnesses that corroborate the homeowners’ stories.

That means we have a couple of cops forcibly entering someones home without a warrant or probable cause - breaking and entering at the least, perhaps even a home invasion.

Then they assault the homeowner, another crime. Then, to top it all off, they file false reports in an attempt to frame the victims for various felonies.

Nice bunch of fascist thugs you’ve got there in North Carolina. Sadly, they’ll probably get off with a slap on the wrist, and when the residents sue, everyone in town will complain about the ACLU being anti-cop.

Let a cop try and pull something like this at my home in Alaska and he’d have kicked the door in to a face full of shotgun. Cops are not above the law, and i would just as soon shoot one in the face for invading my home with no warrent, just as fast as i would if he were a some crackhead trying to rob me.

I am a conservative.
I support the police.
I believe you should not treat the flag with disrespect.
I was in the military.
Once the officer told these people they had to take the flag down, he had no reason to continue bothering them.  He stopped being a police officer, and became a bully.
Is hanging the flag upside down, really disrespect?  I voted for the man who sent us to this war, twice.  I still support people right to free speech, even when they disagree with me.

As someone who is in the military and has been for 17 years and as I son-in-law of a retired police officer it seriously disturbs me and angers me when I read stories like this and then read comments from people trying to defend what this officer did. There is NO defense for how this deputy acted. As Americans we have a right to express ourselves and the Supreme Court has upheld that desecrating the flag is one of those rights. I took an oath to “Support and defend the Constitution of the United States against ALL enemy’s both foreign and domestic.” it is an oath that I am very proud of and it is an oath that I take very seriously. As the old saying goes “I may disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”

Now that I’ve gotten that out of my system I’m going to move along now but there is one more thing that I want to address.

Davido you said “Once we get the United States Military involved......” Well I am involved and I think that I’ve made my feeling on this perfectly clear. Unless you mean get them involved in kicking in doors then you may want to go read up on posse comitatus oh and that showing an officer your ID thing. This isn’t Soviet Russia or East Germany you don’t have to show your ID, oh and those were SOCIALIST countries, you know left wing, liberals, oh who am I kidding you’d never get it....

Mike:

You have so many mistakes in your post I am at a loss where to start. How about this: Hiibel did not stand for the proposition that failing to provide an ID card upon request is grounds for arrest. The opinion stated that “stop-and-identify” laws are not per se unconstitutional. The law in the Hiibel case makes no mention of presenting your “papers” upon request, merely identifying yourself by name is sufficient.

BTW, North Carolina does not have one of these laws; therefore, you are not required to identify yourself upon request in N.C.

One would think that a person like yourself, having some minimal level of intelligence that allows you to link a Wikipedia page, would have the additional brainpower to actually read it prior to posting the link.

Stop playing lawyer on the Internet. You fail.

Mike 6:09 PM,

I’m not going to take the time to read that case, but given that you say it interprets the Terry v. Ohio rule, you’re probably wrong about its application to this situation.

Under Terry, a cop can make a “Terry stop” if there is a reasonable suspicion of an illegal activity.  In this case, from the facts that we have, it appears there is no way that the officer could establish that predicate requirement. The SCOTUS precedent on flag desecration is crystal clear and as such any local ordinance would be totally unenforceable.  The cop had to have known that, and frankly, its irrelevant if it didn’t.  They were under no obligation to turn over that ID.  I hope the ACLU does get involved, at the very least to get the cop fired.

The problem for them, however, is that its going to be very hard for the Kuhn’s to recover in a civil action for two reasons. First, the officer himself probably doesn’t have many assets which would be seized post-judgment, which effectively makes him judgment proof.  Secondly, they won’t be able to recover under a 43 USC 1983 action unless there is some sort of policy of the department that he was following (which may or may not be the case here).

Hanging the flag upside down was very disrespectful of their fellow citizens and all those in uniform.  Personally, I find that act extremely distasteful.

Having said that, once the cop started breaking down the door, and yes, it’s plain that’s what happened from the several witnesses that saw it, the police themselves disgraced their badge.

Which is worse?

I would be upset if the couple go to jail for something they did that was stupid - like hanging a flag upside down.  But you know, you should get what is coming to you if you break into someones home.  Especially a law enforcement officer.  The policeman was lucky and was not injured.  Hopefully he will not only get fired from his job, he will do some time in jail.

The law is there to protect everyone - even losers that hang the greatest flag in the world upside down.

City of Asheville: Mayor
70 Court Plz
Asheville, NC 28801
(828) 259-5600
ashevillenc.gov

Van Duncan
Sheriff
(828) 250-4503
Buncombe County Sheriff’s Office
202 Haywood St.
Asheville, North Carolina 28801
http://www.buncombecounty.org/governing/depts/Sheriff/

In revolutionary times [ < --- 1st hint ], this was a signal of distress. And leave that to be lost on your average middle brow cop [give it a name man, i know that is flamebait!].

metaphorically speaking, it’s pretty deep. A, these are the times, for what you might ask ? Revolution and secondly, relative to the meaning of flying a flag upside down, we are indeed “...in trouble”.

I don’t support any kind of desecration of our FLAG but hanging it upside down, is not per se, “desecration”.

Heck I’ve been thinking of getting “Don’t tread in me” in either a t-shirt form or poster form, banner perhaps, etc.

And this is not some ephemeral pursuit, we are in trouble but we can help ourselves.

I have no problem with this and frankly, the cops can’t be blamed entirely, I would imagine on a community level, this “display” to be a problem.

But not to me personally.

be well.

North Carolina has been a police state for as long as I remember.That is the main reason I left there.I have been stopped going to work by non government auditors asking questions as to where I was coming from and going to when i replied none of your business i was promptly detained by a NC State trooper that was assigned to assist.It was the only way to and from work and i was stopped everyday for 2 weeks.And when visiting my mom who stayed there I saw it still was happening.THE people of NC are used to it so it doesn’t seem abnormal.Unfortunately now the whole country is the same.I am leaving until better times

To those who claim the couple did not have to identify themselves because the ordinance is unconstitutional, you’re wrong. According to the Asheville Citizen-Times article on this same event, the officer asked for identification because he needed it to write a citation. The ordinance is still on the books as state law. Police officers do not make or interpret the law, certainly not on the front porch. They merely enforce the law as written and leave it to a judge to decide the rest.
If you think they were under no obligation to identify themselves to the officer, try not identifying yourself the next time a cop wants to give you a ticket. You’ll find yourself in jail pretty quick. These people will have the desecration charge dropped and be convicted of assault and resisting arrest. And they are guilty of both.
They should have simply complied, taken the ticket and gone to court on the desecration charge and had it and the law itself tossed. Instead they resisted and actually did break the law.
Do you really want policemen deciding which laws are constitutional?

Dugg!

I’m going to write the FBI and the US District Attorney and ask them to investigate this incident.

Another Thug With a Badge:

http://timpeck.blogspot.com/2007/07/another-thug-with-badge.html

Sounds like this cop was acting on his own personal agenda.  So… what party will he be running under in the next city council election?

I submitted this link to a news aggregator Fark.com, hoping to attract more attention to this travesty. Looks like it worked.

My apologies to the MXpress server.

This post is in response to those who served in the military and defend the actions of the police in this instance. I served and I am now an attorney. I understand the pride in our country and the freedom for which it stands. I understand that the flag has more meaning to us than many civilians will understand. I understand that you find this form of protest to be distasteful.  I am deeply troubled by the direction in which this administration has taken this country but I still shake my head at those who protest in this fashion. It would not be my choice but I would happily lay down my life to protect their right to offend me and still be free from police invasion of their home. I say this assuming that the facts are true as described. PLEASE remember that the sacred freedoms you defend include the freedom to protest and even the freedom to desecrate the flag. PLEASE remember that you swore an oath to the Constitution of the United States, not the President or the flag. American blood has never been spilled to protect the piece of fabric. It was always spilled to protect the freedom represented by the flag. Countries like China, Iraq, Nazi Germany and the former U.S.S.R. had laws against flag desecration and protest against the government. Do we really want to be counted among those nations. That is what you advocate when you cheer these sorts of laws and cheer the police for enforcing them with such blind zeal. Take a moment and think about the freedom to speak your mind that you enjoy and remember that the price you pay for that is having to tolerate the offensive statements of those you despise. We served, fought and spilled blood to protect exactly this freedom. Be offended if you like but I think of it as a show of gratitude for my service.

BETTER GET IN LINE OR GET LOCKED AWAY!!!!

Oh the land of the free…
And the home of the brave.

America truly must wake up.
The Freedom of speech is the pride of the land.
And this blatant rape on said right must be punished. However we ALL know that the policeman will get away, and all his working partners will back him up and protect him.
Is this what you want? The Police abusing the law, raping the freedom of speech and getting away with it?

Act now!

While the American flag might represent some of the worst things in the world,
everyone still have their right to present it as they please.
Laws are there to protect the people.
And I can’t imagine someone getting hurt by it, it’s not a taser you know..

Act now!

http://www.h8torade.com

Civil disobedience is still disobedience.
Suck it, liberal fruitcakes.

If I see someone flying the American flag upside down, I get very offended

What about my rights?

Mike referenced Terry stops and the Hiibel case as cases that give supposed justification for the police to request identification and the person question to be required to answer. This is an incorrect citation of case law. First of all, the Hiibel case upheld Nevada’s right to have a stop and identify law upon reasonable suspicion of a crime. There is no federal stop and identify law, it is something that goes state by state. North Carolina is one of the many states that does NOT have a stop and identify law. So, Terry stops are allowed, but the police in North Carolina may only request, and may not demand identification during a Terry stop.

Secondly, Hiibel was standing outside his truck, on a public road when he was questioned. That made it a Terry stop, as any freshman criminal justice major can tell you. The same student will also tell you that Terry stops have nothing whatsoever to do with police coming onto your own private property, nor do they have anything to do with police breaking down your door without a warrant and violently assaulting you in the privacy of your home, which, according to multiple witnesses, is what happened here.

The officer’s actions from beginning to start were not only unjustified under federal and North Carolina state law, they were criminal assaults against innocent parties.

Another point here is that Mr. Kuhn did not desecrate the flag, nor did he disrespect it. He did not burn the flag, he did not dirty it, tear it, bury it, spit on it, wear it as a diaper, or do any of the other myriad things which have ever been considered to be desecration. He merely hung it upside down and temporarily attached a statement and a picture of the President to it. That is a political statement, not a desecration.

Texas v. Johnson 1989 US Supreme Court decision upholds the right to burn or deface the flag as expressive speech protected by the First Amendment.

To the previous Mike:

Unless a police officer gives you a direct order, you do not have to comply with it.

If he asks “Can I see some ID?” you can very well say no and begin to walk away. If he tells you to give him your ID, you have to comply.<hr>

Good for the cops.  Maybe will open the eyes of the rest of the low rent ######## who burn flags and trashes them. People doing wrong today gets people behind them because they have rights.  I have rights to such as having served my country, saw the flags represent the highest of honor on my friends coffin.  When I see a flag I should have the right to see and remember it as honor not signs , notes , or burning flags.  I dont care if they violated a law they, violated honor and freedom.  IF YOU DONY like it I*ll bet you dont vote.  If you dont like the way it goes dont be displaying stuff like that to draw attention.  They got what the deserved.  Pack you shit and move out of the country if you think its that bad.

Mike 8:55,

You ask the question “do [I] really want policemen deciding which laws are constitutional?” No, I don’t.  But that is NOT the case here.  If you had bothered to read several of the comments preceding yours, you would have read that the police officer would not be doing that.  The flag burning/flag desecration question has been answered TWICE by the United States Supreme Court, first in Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397 (1989) and later reaffirmed, even more broadly, in US v. Eichmann, 496 U.S. 310.

Thus, the ordinance in question is per se unconstitutional (and the Kuhn’s actions in displaying the flag perfectly legal). It does not matter that it remains on the books.  I would imagine, and certainly hope, that basic consitutional rights are taught on the first day at the police academy.  But regardless, there was not any reasonable suspicion of criminal activity and thus the officer’s “Terry stop” was illegal.  As per the case law, and the case you cited in your previous comment, the police are only allowed to ask for identification if they have the reasonable suspicion that would allow a “Terry stop.” Furthermore, as another commenter noted, North Carolina does not have a “stop and identify” law, and thus the officer could not claim that that he was acting pursuant to a statutorily granted authority.

This isn’t ‘normal’.
Its not even *close* to ‘normal’.

I’m afraid of any country & the Peoples that would even ponder the ‘normalcy’ of this event.

=====
“When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.”
=====

Spread Love…
... but wear the Glove!

BlueBerry Pick’n
can be found @
ThisCanadian
“Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced”

what a bunch of hillbillies down there in never never land.  that kind of redneck deliverance shit is exactly why I live in big cities.

It’s disgraceful that members of the National Guard, sworn to protect freedom, could act in a manner so antithetical to the 1st Amendment. Mark Radford and his flunkies should be ashamed of themselves as soldiers and as Americans.

Lets see… first they posted a fake distress signal. Second, they violated a state statute (most likely knowingly and purposefully). Then they refused to identify themselves (a violation of the law in every state and territory of the United States). Looks to me like they were trying to provoke, and they got what they were asking for.

What ever happened to complying with the orders of a police officer? You don’t walk away from the police when they are talking to you, especially when they are responding to a complain about YOU. You don’t refuse to show them your ID and you have no right to “self defense” if you are being forcibly detained! Just because you ducked inside your house doesn’t mean you are suddenly “immune” or have the “right” to not be confronted by the police. The police had every power to surround the house with weapons drawn and fire tear gas inside.

I dunno, it sounds like from the story you were funding al queda and this officer stopped the whole thing.

I don’t think cops get away with this shit in 3rd world countries, how can they get away with it here?

They could have always done worse, as Bush basically made protesting the war against the law.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07/20070717-3.html

Don’t like it, or think that Bush has once again ignored your bill of rights?  Talk to your representatives today and express your opinion to them.

Cops murder innocent people here in Portland, Oregon. They shoot them or beat them to death. And they walk free without so much as a wrist slap. At least these two were not killed by the cowardly cops.

Robert… Quite frankly, I personally find the killing and looting of my fellow human beings in Iraq “distasteful”. And as far as the flag goes, given what it seemingly represents in the year 2007, they should have burned it.

The flag has been desecrated all right, but not by the man who used it to express his protest.  Those two police officers have disgraced the flag, by protecting the symbol while ignoring the freedom it stands for.

The man they attacked should sue, and settle for nothing less than both of these idiots losing their jobs.

-jcr

Why does the officer need ID when the “offenders” are presumably identifiable by their names on their mailbox? Surely the officer didn’t need their ID to write a citation, he had other ways to obtain their names and address. Also, these officers went there seeking a confrontation, not a conversation. Police are being trained to “control” the situation with military tactics, not to contribute to the well being and safety of the community they supposedly serve. After the “offenders” took the flag down the officer had no reasonable basis to write a citation, which would surely have been dismissed in court. These officers are going to have a hard time justifying their actions in court, especially when it concerns such a minor infraction. After all, it was just someone expressing themselves in a way that others thought was desecration, NOT someone running a crack house or brandishing a firearm around the neighborhood. When I was a kid, our local sheriffs acted a lot more like Andy Taylor, and a lot less like Dirty Harry.

Ever wonder why some politicians are so interested in spending massive amounts of taxpayer money on building more jails and prisons? To lock away not just violent criminals but those with opposing political views. The American dystopia is slowly turning into a martial state run by wealthy despots.

Excessive force. Yeah sure. But these people are idiots. Support the damn country that provides you your freedom, and the men who bleed, lose limbs and die for your right to be an ignorant, spiteful person. They left the flag that way. There is a code of conduct for the flag. If you don’t know about it, or don’t care. LEAVE MY COUNTRY. I put the flag out every morning, and take it in every evening. The flag was flown everywhere after 9/11 out of respect and patriotism. If your so lost and confused, the statement you should have been looking for is to take your flag down and not fly it. Thats a pretty big indicator to me that your patriotism is wavering. Excessive force? Sure. But I see a disgruntled american patriot. That such ungrateful people get to reap the benefits of the brave men and women who put those red stripes on that flag. Goto Canada or something.

Davido, why should they have to move to San Francisco to have their First Amendment rights protected. Why do you hate the Constitution? Why do you hate the Bill of Rights?

I live in Western Washington state.  My home town is “red” with shades of “purple”.  I have a very large “IMPEACH” sign on my front lawn.  I’ve been wondering how long it’s going to take for someone to get irate and plow into it with their car (pick-up) I hope this story gets BIG coverage the next few weeks.  Who’s going to DC in October?

If you want to know what’s really going on this this country search video.google.com for 911 and watch the 9/11 Mysteries ( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003 ) the Loose Change video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501
), or 9/11 Press For Truth ( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5589099104255077250 )

Things are far worse than you think, and this couple is igniting a powerkeg.

The actions of the officer truly indicate that this country is indeed in “Distress”. What this couple did was within the Law, within their rights. They were intimidated and assulted for exercising these rights. I also would be interested in Who were the military men that were seen driving by, taking pictures and basically trying to do a number on these citizens, harrassment. Just because you wear a uniform one is not above the Law.

These folks got what they asked for. You can not run away from a law enforcement officer when he asks for you identification.

Additionally, if the accused had complied with the officers initially directions to remove the desecrated flag (in violation of state laws), the officers would not have been injured and Mark and Deborah Kuhn would not have been arrested.

So, did you National Guard folks call in similar reports during the various illegal alien demonstrations in the last year or so that showed the American flag being burned, trampled, defiled, flown upside down, and flown underneath the Mexican flag?  Or is it only a crime when Americans do it?

We have already seen how the police and government will respond.  The illegals can gather in groups numbering in the tens of thousands to defy our laws, and the cops do absolutely NOTHING but stand by and thumb themselves in abject fear.  Let a couple of American citizens refuse to show their ID though, and the billy clubs and tasers are eagerly brought into play.

America: land of the free, home of the brave.

Section 1983. Civil action for deprivation of rights

Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia.

I don’t know how it is out there, but in California a sad and pathetic liberal state I’m ashamed to call my home. A police officer can and most likely will arrest you for failing to comply with a lawful order.  On a personal note, not only was it flag desecration...which is against the law there...but the manor in which it was being hung is obviously akin to sending out a distress call on a radio or making a prank 911 call for reasons of political protest, neither of those things would be covered under freedom of speech...The story mentioned a police officer even stopping prior to the incident, so obviously its a hassle for law enforcement....and judging from what little i have gathered about these people, they are the same type of liberal disgustingly litigious people that would sue the police department a year from now for hanging the flag upside and expecting them to realise they were in distress for some reason and they didn’t stop.

People like this are what will lead to the eventual downfall of this nation, and sadly, thats exactly what they want.

Huck you have every right to be offended, you have no right to go onto their property and take action against THEIR exercise of free speech. Not sure who said it but your right to respond ends just prior to your fist hitting their nose. Go any further, make contact, trespass etc. and you violate THEIR rights. As this Sheriff Deputy clearly did. the First, Fourth and Fifth Ammendments are not in the Bill of Rights by accident.

And for those of you not familiar with this most important document here is a link for you

http://www.law.emory.edu/index.php?id=3080

Not to mention this one why many of us are so poopsed to OUR Current King George

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm

Wow, In North Carolina you see people flying the CONFEDERATE flag in many places, are they ‘violating the law’ too?

obviously from the picture in the Citizen-Times, this couple is not a liberal couple, but republicans, and republicans that are not blinded by the “patriotism” and “terrorism” tactic used by bush and giuliani… They have a Ron Paul for President sign… He is a VERY huge defender of the constitution, as every elected person SHOULD be, but usually aren’t… Everyone, left and right, should take a few minutes to read more about Ron Paul and what he stands for…

http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200770725118

This story sickens me… he should have left their home as soon as they took the flag down, which they didn’t even HAVE to do…