Those of us who are Vietnam veterans have long memories… Hanoi Jane IS NOT welcome.

I guess “author” has never done anything he regrets.  What’s it like being perfect?

Better than betraying my country in time of war.

You mean like our current President?

So they are coming to Asheville from all over to: talk in presentations, talk in groups, talk in panels, talk in “performances”, and talk in workshops.  They will hate to figure this out someday, but they are just engaging in traditional, longstanding hen activities (ie. Aunt Bea, Wilma Flinstone, and Gladys Kravits, etc).  Even the winning logo looks like a hen trying to be a rooster, and they will all be wearing this on a tee shirt as Jane Fonda broods them.

No, I mean overt treason like when Hanoi Jane (and this is none of the ways in which she earned that name) donned a helmet and sat on a NVA antiaircraft gun in North Vietnam while Americans were dying fighting. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Fonda#.22Hanoi_Jane.22

To put this in modern terms, imagine Rosie O’Donnell (who’s against the Iraq war) traveling to Iraq or Gaza and posing with a suicide bomber’s belt on. Admittedly, in the case of Rose, that would be a quite impressive piece of ordnance).

oops, typo ... above should read “this is one of the ways”

Jane Fonda, on many ocassions has admitted to making a mistake that to this day she regrets.  Since that fateful day in Hanoi, she has met with countless members of the military apologizing for her poor judgement and letting them know that like many Americans who objected to the Vietnam war, she has always honored the troops and their bravery.  But as is true with the current war in Irag, you can support our troops, but at the same time object to the war.

If only one was to put as much emphasis on our current governmental and corporate (one of the same) traitors…

great concept, glad women are gathering and communicating.  The logo is not very inspiring.

The logo inspires me to hire a graphic designer for the group.

Tracey is an award winning graphic designer,and a really great person to work with. Check out her website here:

http://www.adgraphicdesign.com

Out of the 40 or so designs that were submitted, this was the one that they choose. Not sure why people have to be so negative about other people’s work. Maybe you all should have submitted a design yourself for the contest.

Sandy

i guess author’s long vietnam-vet memory is only selective, since he doesnt seem to want to remmeber that the Gulf of Tonkin incident was a total lie.

What a scam.
If it were serious they would have Oprah or Martha Stewart, or someone who really did/does something; not a phony “activist”.  This looks to be shaping up to be more about being a leftist propaganda convention than really about how women can excel.

Evidently, Paris Hilton is busy that day.

I wonder if author brought any yellow ears back with him. Maybe he should join up and go to iraq, they will take anyone these days. I’ve heard they pay a bonus to sociopaths.

Yes, Vietnam vets have long memories. Jane Fonda has never apologized or tried to make amends for her traitorous behavior during the Vietnam War. She went to North Vietnam. She had her picture taken at an anti-aircraft gun used to shoot down USAF planes. She broadcast on the radio to US military personel in the south and told them they should lay down their weapons and desert their posts. When handed a note by a US P.O.W., instead of giving it to US authorities, she gave the note to the enemy guards who brutally tortured the P.O.W.

Jane Fonda is a traitor who should have served prison time for treason. She is not welcome here in Asheville. Myself and my fellow vets will protest her appearance.

Selective memory rules the day among these pissed off Nam Vets. Take a very close look at the footage of the soldiers in Vietnam, and their faces, as they watch Jane Fonda and Donald Sutherland in the F.T.A. shows they performed in country. Those guys sure look like they were enjoying the honest comic relief and antiwar view they weren’t getting from Bob Hope. See the documentary film “Sir No Sir!” for the true story of the homegrown G.I. antiwar movement that flourished on every U.S.military in the world.  There was plenty to be pissed off about during that nightmare of a war that we were LIED into with the phony Gulf of Tonkin ruse—but the anger is more accurately directed at the Johnson and Nixon adminisrations, Pentagon brass and the military officers in Vietnam who had you “waist deep in the big muddy, while the big fool said to ‘push on!’ ”  Direct your anger when it rightly belongs. One actress didn’t lose that war. As painful as it still may be for some to admit 40 years later, that grim and horrific war wasbuilt on lies that 58,000 Americans died for beween 1964 and 1975.  Sadder stil, is the even lesser-knwn fact that even more Vietnam Vets have taken their own lives in the years since that war officiallly ended. Because, for them, that awful nightmare never stopped replaying itself in their minds until they ended their own lives. What a grotesque and tragic waste of human lives.  Don’t you dare ever repeat that ancient lie again: that it is heroic and honorable to die for ones country. 
“A working class hero is something to be…but we’re still ####### peasants as far as I can see…”

I don’t know if you people are keeping up with current events… let me remind you that Charlie kicked your behinds. They won because they fought harder, smarter, and they believed in their cause. They were defending their country from a foreign invader and fighting a civil war. They would have never given up. Sound familiar? It should. Let’s start up the draft again and you will see long this war in Iraq lasts. The Amerikan public will drop it like a used condom. As long as semi-mercenaries are fighting this war and it doesn’t cost them anything the Amerikan public will go for anything they’re told. If this war is soooo important, let’s draft a million men and women and send them over to Iraq.

You’ve seen some pictures or film clips of RVN? So now you have an informed opinion? NOT. If you did not serve in Vietnam or any other combat zone, or not in the military at all…then you don’t know jack. You only have the opinion of a bystander…probably a pretty anti-American one. You are most likely a freedom leech and a drag on this country. If we ever had a conflict here at home would you have the guts to fight? I doubt it. The whining macho stance of “protesters” is inverse to the actual real life “rubber meets the road” guts it takes to be a man. I doubt either of you have what it takes. But do not despair. There are men and women who have the courage to serve in your behalf. How about you having the character to support them? But I suppose that is asking too much.

And so your response is to call me a gutless sissy and instruct me to ignore history simply because you “think” I did not serve my country and you “assume” I’m a protestor. I suppose there are some who would say you have to kill a few men, women, and babies to be a man. But personally, I think it takes a lot of guts these days to stand up for peace. It’s easy for all those flag waving yahoos to “sportda troups” but I bet if you stacked up all the dead women and children you guys accidently kill when you invade a country, and left them to stink on mainstreet USA they might rethink that support. And finally, the majority of the people in this country don’t support this war, nor are they asking you to serve. Try not to forget that following orders is not always a good excuse…remember those nazi bastards? JANE FONDA WAS RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!

Jane “Hanoi” Fonda was wrong the first time, and continues to be wrong. The comment about me and other soldiers killing women and children is an insult. By talking in such a manner you reveal your ignorance and and lack of backbone. You are a freedom leech…and an ingratious one at that. You don’t deserve the freedom you now enjoy. But as an American you get it by your luck of birthplace. If you have such a low opinion of your country and it’s military, I suggest you live elsewhere…at least for a while. Try one of the countries you think are “victims” of the USA. See if you’d be allowed there to speak up. Go ahead. Try Cuba, Iran, Syria…for a start. Then maybe (if you survive) you’ll appreciate what you have here…freedom. Bought and paid for by the blood of US military. Jane Fonda is the epitomy of an anti-American ingrate. She deserves the loathing she gets from Nam vets. She has expressed admiration for communism, specifically North Vietnam. I suggest she move there. Either that, or learn to appreciate and love her own country.

What freedoms, exactly, did the Vietnam conflict win us?  I mean specifically?  I mean you did a great job of keeping the Viet Cong out of the country, but other than that I don’t see that any freedoms were protected, or won.  Unless you were speaking of the freedom of the government to impose its own social/political/economic philosophy on a sovereign foreign nation without the consent of the nations populous then I don’t really see you having a factual leg to stand on.  Please tell me more of this beloved freedom that you think only people who think like you deserve…actually after having thought about it, perhaps you are the one who should move to Cuba, Iran, Syria as your dislike for dissent would seem to put you right at home with those respected regimes.

Oh My God, it’s “love it or leave it ” time again. It’s like 1969 redux.

dhalgreen, that’s an oldie but a goodie isn’t it? It was true then and remains true today. LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT. “When you’re runnin down my country hoss you’re walkin on the fightin side of me”. Thank you Merle Haggard. Constructive criticism is always welcome. But whining yuppie ingrates who constantly complain and criticize are not welcome and are the ones who ought to love this country or leave it.

As far as the comment about Vietnam, we were not imposing our social/political system on the south. We were invited to help the Republic of South Vietnam defend themselves against communist invaders from the north. When we did leave Vietnam, the communists took everything over. Then not satisfied with that, their leftwing imperialist hunger drove them to invade and rape Cambodia. That particular invasion caused a long time Vietnam war protester to take pause and rethink her support of communist Vietnam. Joan Baez took out full page ads in the New York Times and Los Angeles Times and San Francisco Examiner condemning the invasion of Camodia. She even went so far as to apologize to the American people for her past anti-war activities. Joan asked Hanoi Jane Fonda and comrade Tom Hayden to sign it as well. They refused. So you see, Jane has never apologized or admitted mistakes she has made. Jane Fonda is a traitor.

Invited? If you call assassinating leaders, fixing elections, and then canceling them when the Communists would have won, then telling the puppet government that they should invite us in is your idea of an invitation, then sure. 

Why is it so hard to accept that that war was wrong?  My country has made some horrible mistakes in its history, but I accept them and still love it anyway, and work to make sure they aren’t repeated. How does denying the truth and inventing a false narrative about ones country where it only does great things make you a patriot?  It doesn’t it makes you a tool of those who would abuse the power granted them by the people, these are the real traitors.

I am not saying that the Vietnam War should’ve been fought. In retrospect, it wasn’t worth it. I am saying that the US military fought well and did it in accordance with Geneva Convention values ( except forthe misdeeds a few individuals).

As far as your tales of assination etc, prove it. Why is it some of us are so quick to believe these types of things? The US governemnt isn’t perfect, but it certainly isn’t evil like some suggest. Besides, that was the period when the sainted liberal president was JFK. Now you know he wouldn’t do anything like that, would he? :)

It’s always just a case of a few bad apples and a lot of them sign up for the military and other occupations that allow them to be in positions of power. They are called sociopaths. They like it. And no matter how many historical revisions you make, you still lost, charlie made you his bitch! (by the way,merle haggard is a knuckle dragger)

Prove it?  it is a matter of public record, Read Robert MacNamara’s book, FOYA CIA and DOD records it is all there, its no big secret (just Goolge Diem, Im sure you will find something). There are plenty of books, articles and information on Operation Phoenix)...
I personally wouldn’t consider Agent Orange, and the dropping of Napalm on women and children, as well as Nixons “secert bombing” of Cambodia (which lead to the Khymer Rouge coming to power) to be within the spirit of the Geneva conventions.

You are assuming that I am a Liberal…that is a wrong assumption.

When Jane comes to town, you should go down to see her and thank her for having the guts to help bring that war to an end. (whatever it took!) I know that if you really are a Namvet who served honorably, you want to believe you were doing the right thing. So do the right thing again and admit you were wrong.(at least to yourself) Everyone makes mistakes and whether or not you are willing to admit it, I forgive you.

The only historic revisions happening are the ones spread by guys like you dhalgreen. We beat the crap out of charlie. The politicians made the decision to pull us out. We were not driven out. It was the kind of conflict where a US military presence would’ve had to be left for a long time, just like Iraq is.Ad the decision to leave was the right one. It wasn’t worth staying for. Same with Iraq. Isn’t worth it. 

The US military was a draft outfit back in the Vietnam era. Even anti-American brats like you dhalgreen would’ve been required to serve. Of course a guy like you probably would’ve have made it through basic training and you would’ve been discharged as not good enough to serve. :) If this country is ever attacked and the need o defend it is apparent, guys like you will let the enemy over-run us. But we had a good run here these last 200 years. Nothing lasts forever. Just like Rome, the US has grown soft because the last several generations are spoiled by the freedom and wealth created by those who went before.

I’m not a guy, I’m a middle aged black woman from Atlanta. Women were not serving as combat soldiers then. And by the way, I was fighting a battle for equal rights right here at home while you were away killing the yellow man. Did you or any of your friends kill those kids at kent state? Where was your freedom then? What kind of scum would do that? I suppose you thought that was great? Well, this is what I pray for: A lesbian & a negro in the white house!!! Praise god!!! That would just about do you in wouldn’t it?

JANE FONDA IS A TRAITOR.

GOD BLESS THE U.S.A.

When all else fails, spew empty rhetoric.

Jane Fonda has done more good in one day than you will do in your whole dimly lit life! Please take your flag and crawl back under your rock.
God Bless Everyone!

Yes, she does so much good in order to make up for her mistakes.  What is the bottom line?  People never forget.  Will people forget 911?  Will people forget Bush?  No. 

People will not forget Jane Fonda’s past, regardless of what she does in the present and the future.  She is a tainted woman.  Deservedly so. 

I would be perfectly content in deporting her to live among her friends in Vietnam for the remainder of her years. 

As a twenty-eight-year-old female citizen of Asheville, I must say that I’m highly disappointed that the conference organizers couldn’t find a more deserving liberal feminist for the June 2008 assembly. 

Why not a local woman keynote speaker?  I can think of a deserving few!

Jane Fonda is a traitor. She has done “good” only if you are an enemy of the USA.

Down with all traitors! God bless the USA where even those that hate their own country have the freedom to sound stupid. Try that in one of your workers’ paradises. :)

Nam Vet,
I would agree that you are doing a great job of sounding stupid, you and your twenty-eight-year-old female alter ego.

There are not any workers paradises to go to…and by the way, I don’t hate my country, I just wish we could educate the next generation and eliminate some of the ignorance I do hate. If we took most of the money we spend on war and put it into education and health care, we could eliminate the need for war. An informed voter could vote to take the profit out of war.

You want to eliminate ignorance? Then educate yourself! You do hate your country when you think a traitor like Jane Fonda is a hero. And you are ignorant as well if you think Jane Fonda is a hero. She is a spoiled brat who distressed her father, actor Henry Fonda, to no end. You see Henry was a true American who was deeply hurt that his daughter was a traitor. Educate yourself with that Missy.

Nam Vet,

You keep speaking of the ignorance of others, but when I mentioned several well-known facts about the Vietnam Conflict you showed your own profound ignorance on the subject.  It is sad really that your world is so easily defined that anyone who questions motives or action of the government is defined as a traitor.  You sound as if you would be right at home in a totalitarian state, perhaps working for the secret police, the home of all cowards who would call themselves patriots.

She was not a hero, but she did some good. I’m sorry she distressed her father, and apparently hurt your feelings also, but what is that compared to napalmed children and all those men who did not come back. And all for the sake of profit and power for a few dirty war profiteers and power hungry pols. Please don’t dishonor the dead by trying to rewrite history. Your view of history has been largely discredited. I wish your homecoming from Vietnam had been better( at least the troops returning from the current Iraq fiasco are honored )  That war was wrong (I don’t care which President started it) And FYI, I’m a Mrs.

LOL, Rolling Stone is a good record of the Vietnam War? No way. Bottom line is Hanoi Jane Fonda went to North Vietnam and conducted herself like a TRAITOR.

God Bless the USA.

God Bless the US military, that keeps us FREE.

The United States Army
The United States Navy
The United States Marine Corps
The United States Air Force Force
The United States Coast Guard.

Our armed forces keep us free and allow for even spoiled brats to open their pie holes and spew anti-American rubbage.

God Bless America!

God Bless Dixieland!

God Bless Dixieland? I thought ‘Dixie’ didn’t want to be part of America?  I seem to remember there being a war or something over it.

Again, please explain how fighting a war in Vietnam (or Iraq) keeps us free?  My guess is you probably never saw any combat, as those who do really become cheerleaders for it.  My guess is you are about 15.

Patriotism - the last refuge of a scoundrel!!!

Ingrate whining…the first and last refuge of a spoiled brat. :)

Cute…sounds like something my 14yo would say.  Peace out!

Peace out? After you call all Vietnam vets killers of women and children? And that we bring home yellow ears? You are the one who needs to peace out. And Hanoi Jane Fonda needs to apologize to 1) Vietnam vets 2) the American people 3) the Vietnamese people. She is a traitor who needs toclean up her own history before she speaks out on women’s ssues.

There you go again, re-writing and distorting history. If someone read all my comments they would see that your latest post is inaccurate. I asked if you brought back any ears, and I pointed out that there is always collateral damage( a popular code word for dead women and children)when you wage a war. TROGLIDITE         And as far as your criticism of Jane, she has done all of the above, having apologized to all and sundry. I’m sorry she didn’t come to whatever hole you live in and apologize to you personally. You have proven once again that you are woefully uneducated and unenlightened or maybe you’re just a 15yo who wants to yank my chain. In any event, you are wrong. Please stop watching fox news, as it’s hampering your ability to reason. I have said all I can say on this subject and I’m tired of trying to educate you.(you are a poor student and probably always have been) So, heres your chance to get the last word in. Please say something really ignorant, and please insult me personally. Don’t let the truth get in the way!  And, as before, I say PEACE TO YOU AND I’M OUT OF HERE.

Posters: Please desist with the name-calling, or we’ll need to close your comments out.

Thank you,

Jon Elliston, managing editor

Sorry Jon…

Thank you Jon. Dhalgren has crossed the line with the insults and name-calling. Her/his calling all Vietnam vets killers of women and children is way over the line. I’m surprised her/his comments were allowed in the original vetting by your magazine. Thanks for the leveling here.

If we cannot discuss the issues without getting personal, this entire exercise is mute. The bottom line here with me is this issue: Jane Fonda has conducted herself in an outrageous and disloyal manner in the past. She is not on record as apologizing to Vietnam vets, the American people, or the Vietnamese people.

All I ask is that she take responsibility for her past misdeeds by making a heartfelt apology. If she still feels her perfidy was justified, then Vietnam Veterans of America will turn out in force and protest her appearance here. Turn about is fair play. Afterall, we have sacrificed for her right to free speech. We deserve the same rights, at the least.

For the record, this from http://urbanlegends.about.com

Image revamped

Since the 1970s, “Hanoi Jane” Fonda has revamped her image several times over, rededicating herself to her acting career, becoming a fitness guru in the early ‘80s and marrying billionaire Ted Turner in 1991. In 1988 she delivered a televised apology to Vietnam veterans and their families, a gesture that didn’t mollify everyone but established some distance between the new Fonda and old Fonda, whose actions, she finally admitted, had been “thoughtless and careless.”

As the ‘90s progressed, Jane Fonda’s past was raised less frequently as an issue and seemed to dwindle in importance — until 1999, that is, when Barbara Walters chose to honor the actress in a TV special called “A Celebration: 100 Years of Great Women.” The announcement of the program — which aired in April of that year and which did, in fact, honor Jane Fonda — prompted an instant outcry from veterans and ex-POWs, many of whom vented their indignation via the Internet. Angry recriminations were posted in newsgroups, published in newsletters and on Web pages, and forwarded by email.

Shameless fabrications

Bits and pieces of these texts, along with a few shameless fabrications, were cobbled together by persons unknown to create the “Hanoi Jane” diatribe which still circulates on the Internet today. Only parts of it are true.

Nam Vet,

Did you know that more than one third of all the homeless in the US are Vets?  And of that third over 70% are Vietnam Vets?  How does this square with your view that the government of this country is infallible?  Deify the military all you want, but in the end you are just a tool of the corporate war culture and the military industrial complex.

and on a side note, how is it you can say on one hand that you are proud to have fought for Jane’s right to dissent, while at the same time denounce her for exercising that right?  Is it because you, whether you can admit it or not, in fact do know that your (supposed) service had nothing whatsoever to do with guarding liberty?

source: http://www.nchv.org/background.cfm

source: http://www1.va.gov/homeless/page.cfm?pg=1

I am all for respectful, peaceful demonstrations. BUT that is not what Hanoi Jane Fonda did. She went to North Vietnam while we were atwar with them, and she gave aid and comfort to that enemy. She was photographed at an anti-aircraft gun used to shoot OUR planes down. She was wearing an NVA uniform. A POW snuck a note to her thinking she would give it to US authorities. Instead she gave it to the NVA guards whobrutally tortured and beat the POW. She went on the radio from North Vietnam and broadcast to OUR troops in the south telling them to lay down their arms and leave teir posts. That is not protest, THAT IS TREASON.

Jane Fonda is a traitor who deserves our loathing.

dude, there is a forum you may find more sympathy at called the citizen-times.com

Dudette, I’m not looking for sympathy here. I am teaching common sense patriotism. Christ associated with the “sinners” who needed his teaching the most. Although I am no Christ, same principle applies. In this forum, you have the most ignorant amongst us. That is why I am here. To enlighten. :)

So people who disagree with you are sinners?

Not at all. But you prove my point about this site being full of ignorant people. The Christ example was meant as an illustration that if you want real debate, you go where the anti’s are, not preach to the choir over at the AC-T. :)

Bottom line: Hanoi Jane Fonda committed treason and at the least should apologize to 1) Vietnam vets 2) the American people 3) the Vietnamese people 4) the Cambodian people (after all, her NVA commies invaded and raped Cambodia after the US withdrew).

God bless the U.S.A. !

i’d say the bush family, who has slowly decimated the constitution, are also a Traitor.

i’ll give you jane, if you give me george sr.

otherwise, no deal.

god Bless the U.S.A!!!!!!!

Actually, it was the Vietnamese army that invaded Cambodia to stop the Khymer Rouge incursions into Vietnam, and the genocide of Vietnamese in Cambodia.  Again you prove your grasp of historical facts to be severly lacking.

Sonjia: “dude, there is a forum you may find more sympathy at called the citizen-times.com”

Maybe more sympathy, but less conversation. We like discussion here, and it’s hard to have that if everyone involved agrees with each other all the time.

steve,

i’m not entirely sure that nam vet is engaging or interested in engaging in ‘conversation’. i was suggesting he check out the citizen times not because he would find more political sympathy there (although im sure he would), but because they seem to support name calling and trolling a Whole Lot more than over here.
making outrageous accusations that have very little factual basis seems to fit in over there a lot more, thats all.
not trying to limit and intelligent, well-researched “conversation”

LOL, Sonja, talk about trolling. There is plenty of it here. First you have dhalgren calling all Vietnam vets killers of women and children and ear cutters. Then you have the outrageous distortions of historical fact exemplified by the posts of “don’t you hate pants”. He evidently gets his “facts” from Worker’s World Weekly, or some other far leftwing hate publication. The facts I have put up here about Hanoi Jane Fonda, the NVA and Viet Cong, and the Vietnamese Communist invasion and rape of Cambodia are all verifiable by anyone who can research and absorb with an objective mind.

Jane Fonda was and is a traitor. The Vietnamese communists were leftwing imperialists bloodthirsty even for their own kind, the Cambodian communists. I suggest that those who have serious complaints about this country leave and try living somewhere else. Hey, Cuba has “free” healthcare. Try it. But I bet you’ll be back in a few months with a new appreciation for the USA.

God bless America. Keeper of the Flame of Freedom!

Sonjia: That’s a perfectly valid point. I don’t know what Nam Vet’s aims are—maybe he just likes picking fights on the internet—but the last thing I’d want to do is run someone off to another blog because they say something I disagree with. At least here, Nam Vet will have the opportunity to hear intelligently stated views that differ from his own.

Folks, it’s been an interesting discussion, to say the least, about whether or not Jane Fonda is a traitor.

But now the discussion’s played out, and it’s time to either add new information and perspectives or move on. Further ad nauseam posts on the traitor/nontraitor argument will not be posted to this thread.

If, however, you can provide new information on this matter, we’ll give it full consideration before deciding whether or not to post it.

Best,

Jon Elliston
Managing Editor

“The Vietnamese communists were leftwing imperialists bloodthirsty even for their own kind, the Cambodian communists.”

Perhaps it is just your horrible grammar that has made this construction seem retarded at best, and racist at worst, but to describe the Vietnamese as imperialists is just dumb, and shows you have no knowledge of their history, or probably any history that wasn’t spoon feed to you from your own dementia rattled brain. 

As for the “facts” that I have posted multiple times (several of the links I provided you were from the US governments own websites) and to which you have yet to respond even once to (other than making sweeping generalizations that have no basis in reality) you have offered no evidence as to the falsity of what I have offered you, instead you have chosen to spew invective and slogans.  So I am done with you, and I must say I do feel sorry for you, and not because you seem to be so woefully and willfully misinformed about the history of a country you claim to love (which is pathetic in its own right…kind of like professing to be a Christian, whilst all the while cheerleading for war).  But to walk around with a head full of so much anger and stupidity must be an awful burden.

and if all you are really interested in doing is trolling and being a jack-ass, then my adivce would be to grow-up, or gets some help.

I, like Jon, am nauseated by Nam Viets endless spewing of halftruths and invective.(It’s like watching fox news) Jon, please censor this blog…just wipe it out like it never happened. You have the power to stifle our speech, so use it if it’s bothering you so much. Or, you could just remove the parts(or people) that you don’t like. And, just out of curiosity, why have you decided that this discussion has played out? (you must be “the decider”) Please share your olympian viewpoint with us plebes.

dhalgren:

When a thread reaches the level of repetition and invective that this one has, the discussion is played out.

As we said, any truly new thoughts/perspectives are welcome. But the same old, same old is getting boring. And Xpress is never boring.

Thanks,

Jon Elliston
Mountain Xpress