This was the schedule for speakers:

—“You Cannot Take Away Freedom To Protect It” - Ron Kauffman
—“This Is A Marathon, Not A Sprint” - Jeffery Lane
—Asheville Tea Party Declaration of Independence - Bernard B Carman
—Nationalized Healthcare - Speaker TBA
—Oath Keepers Oath Ceremony - Rand Cardwell
—Federal Reserve Transparency Act Update - Matthew Hoagland
—NC State Sovereignty Resolution Update - Gary Shoemaker
—Experience with Canada Healthcare - (unk)
—One Option for Eliminating the IRS - Laura McCue
—Individualism in America - Tim Peck

Here is the text of the speech I delivered to close the Asheville Independence Day Tea Party.
http://snipr.com/ltvby

Matt Mittan spoke?

Wow, hate I missed that.  I’m a big fan of Mittan’s and though I was there before, during, and after the event (and he didn’t speak) I must have somehow missed him.  Darn!  I would have liked to have met him. 

I guess he was somewhere in the crowd of about 1100 disguised as a crowd of 600.

I’m still curious where these folks were for the last 7 years or so of an escalating, very expensive war being paid for on credit…

Point of correction to the article: Matt Mittan did not speak at the Independence Day Tea Party in Asheville.

For more information about the Oath Keepers, please check them out at their website.  (google Oath Keepers)  The heavy editing of the video clip above leaves out the most important information from Rand’s speech - that the Oath Keepers are dedicated to reaffirmation of the oaths taken by all military and law enforcement personnel (and our elected officials, too.)  Their oath is to the Constitution, which makes the orders that he mentions (the ones they will not obey) illegal orders.

The Iraq war cost less than $100 billion/year whereas our national debt accrues interest at rate of over $250 billion/year.

Obama has come out publicly and said our spending is not sustainable and we must do something about it, and the solution apparently is to spend more money.  We need advocates for small government running the show more than ever and we have quasi-socialists expanding government at a breakneck pace.  There are actually more state/federal employees than in construction and manufacturing combined.  The ratio for state employees to citizens in California is about 1:100 and it doesn’t take a genius to realize California is a precautionary tale for the rest of the country, yet we’re turning into California with unsustainable “progressive” policies that erode personal liberties.

The government says they can spend my money more wisely than I can.  With mandatory volunteering ont he horizon, they’re telling me they can spend my time more wisely as well.  What’s so progressive about citizens losing their personal liberties?

Good job Tim. Glad there was a good turnout at the Tea Party. God knows, this is a conservative area, notwithstanding the influx of northern liberals.

Unlike The (PfkAP), you have the guts to post with your real name. Dave, do you care to give your last name here and add some legitimacy to your post?

The (PFKaP),

There were several anti-war protesters during the Bush Administration who share the sentiments of the current TEA Party movement and it is fair to say the anti-war sentiment was perhaps not as strong as the current anti-big government movement. 

The first of these modern TEA Parties, however, was during the Bush Administration, some 14 months before he left office and was indeed part of a larger anti-war sentiment.  These same protesters, I can only assume, will also be in strong opposition to the coming escalation of Unconstitional war-mongering in Afghanistan and Pakistan. 

For some modern TEA party background, heres a clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKZmIzEMUN8

Obama has spent more already then Bush did on bother wars, so far Captain Hope and Change has spent more then the last several presidents.

But thats ok because of the D beside his name because thats all that really matters.

Agreed. Why is this an issue this year? This has been going on for 7 years.

well Mr. “The (PFKaP)”, i for one WAS protesting the tyranny which has been perpetrated by current and former US administrations over the last decade or so of my life, while striving to educate myself more about liberty.

where have YOU been?  and where are YOU now, while tyranny continues to grow, especially in the area of economic irresponsibility?

as tyranny increases, more and more people will hopefully continue to stand up and speak out against it.  are you going to continue to be one of those who would rather criticize these people for doing so?

just remember where your other fingers are pointing when you point one finger in criticizing others.

LOL!  “this has been going on for 7 years”!  that’s really funny!

wake up already and learn that this issue has been going on for at least over a Century.

or, don’t and continue to ridicule others for doing what every American SHOULD be doing—demanding Constitutionally limited government.

after all, the choice is up to you.

Can someone produce a photo of Matt Mittan at the grassroots Tea Party?

Damn - hate that I missed the ‘conservative’ Matt Mittan… how was he? Was he inspiring? Was he stoic? Because the independent Matt Mittan (that would be me) was with my family all day. Nowhere near the Tea Party. Can’t wait to see the video! LOL

Dave, do you care to give your last name here and add some legitimacy to your post?

Ask the same of “h.r. 1207” and “infinityBBC” then, or do you say they lack legitimacy, too? For that matter, the use of a first and last name doesn’t prove that those names belong to the person using them—as Cullen Anderson has proved so often under so many names.

Matt says he was not there.  Believe him before the mountain express.

Not to mention that Mike McCormick is currently posting under that alias of ‘mistah waffle’ in the forums. Hypocrite much?

This post was recently removed from the forums. It was written by the poster that goes by ‘mistah waffle’.

Look familiar, ‘Mike McCormick’?

Title: Tim Johnson more republican family values ?

Message:Ah piffy, don’t be such a fag. Can’t you extend another argument
with someone who won ‘t knuckle under to your stupid liberal point? Pussy.
And tattletale. It’s clear what you did up in junior high school in New
Jersey. You were a hall monitor, right Dave?

See that thing where he calls The (PFKaP) Dave? Yep, he does that quite a bit.

So, homophobic as well as a hypocrite. classy.

Not to mention that Mike McCormick is currently posting under that alias of ‘mistah waffle’ in the forums. Hypocrite much?

Oh, I’ve seen “Mistah Waffle” covering himself in Cullen-esque glory over there.

h.r 1207—Thanks fore the info. It sounds like you are different than many of the “Tea Party” folks I have spoken with, who blame this entire economic mess and corporate bailout on the current President. I am glad there are folks like you who cross those silly boundaries.

infinitybbc-“just remember where your other fingers are pointing when you point one finger in criticizing others. “

Well, I wasnt pointing any fingers. I was asking a question.

But isnt that exactly what you are doing at a protest? Pointing fingers? Isnt that pretty inherent to a “Protest”?

PFKaP - I’d say you were talking with the wrong Tea Party folks. I have spoken with very very few who think our problems started with Obama.

for anyone here who cares, “infinityBBC” is my handle which i use in many online forums.  my full name is bernard baruch carman, for anyone who is interested.  i was vice chair of the Libertarian Party of Buncombe County for several years, then chair for a while as well.  i certainly do not make a habit out of hiding when it comes to my stand on liberty.

i apologize PFKaP for coming off as perhaps being a bit rash in my presumption of your question.

but after spending quite a bit of my energies in libertarian education and political activism (including protesting) over the last decade or so of my life, i grow a bit tired of some of the critical comments about “what these people have been doing for the past 7 or 8 years.”

frankly, i’m kind of burnt out on it all and wonder if i should even bother continuing in anything of the sort.

we libertarian minded Americans seem to get a bunch of criticism from “both” sides—from the “progressive” socialists and the Neo-Con (and Theo-Con) fascists.

i’m in a somewhat unique situation, since i’m also a Christian, and therefore, i happen to catch grief from some other Christians for even getting involved in all this!

so really, i often feel like saying nuts to it all, and welcome the fall of America with open arms!

however, i just cannot yet stomach the thought of not standing up for liberty.  therefore, i will continue to try my best to do so, as i also continue in my personal education.

Wish I had been there. Did they all get out of the same little car? I love seeing clowns do that.

I don’t know what the big deal is here. Nothing new.

It seems like this event was just another Asheville anti-war demonstration.

Right? War/military accounts for most of our government’s spending…

Erika and Matt, thank you for the correction. My sincere apologies.

In looking at pictures of this event (currently published on the AC-T and from other sources) it appears as if there were quite a number of children there, clearly too young to have a clue as to what’s going on, yet holding signs (‘Taxed Enough Already’ and so on).  How many of the reported “hundreds” that showed up were children, dragged along by mommy and daddy?

And what is to be made of the guy there that wore a sign covering his torso saying “I own a gun and didn’t bring it…yet.”  Will the next gathering of tea bag wearing malcontents erupt into a shoot-out?

Finally, it’s humorous to hear from all of these people who now take umbrage at over-taxation, the larger role of the federal government, etc. claiming that during the nightmare Bush years, they ‘protested’ as well.  Funny how that works out.  No such organized ‘protests’ while Bush racked up record deficits, trashed the Constitution, lied the country into a designer war, destroyed the independence of the Justice Department, elevated cronyism to an art form, hurt this country’s image abroad and ran the economy to the brink of no return.  Tons of these characters are all now claiming they have been consistent and railed against these things from the beginning.

Perhaps a few did, but by and large, this is all revisionism masking an anti-Obama agenda.  Many of the same people pushing these ‘tea parties’ were burning up the keyboard defending the last administration.  Some of them were at this ‘event’ too.  It’s pretty hard to take some of these people (and their ‘message’) seriously.

“It’s pretty hard to take some of these people (and their ‘message’) seriously.”

We’re not holding our breath.

“We’re not holding our breath.”

Maybe you should; you might get more attention if you hold your breath until you turn blue.

Yuck, yuck.

I particularly enjoyed the testimonial from the kid whose parents sent him to college in England. Apparently, the school’s doctors made him wait for treatment for his non-critical asthma. *gasp* (And yes, he did eventually get he meds he needed, and no, it didn’t cost him anything.)

Because of this, socialized medicine is bad! M’kay. Ignore that it works just better than what we have currently, for far less money. M’kay.

Can’t wait till he little pud grows up and realizes he can’t afford American-style healthcare because he now has a pre-existing condition. (Asthma)

Paul -V-,

Your post mischaracterized the speech that the young man made.  He was brave to speak to such a large crowd on an impromptu basis, and what he said was, he was made to wait for a week for what would have been an emergency room visit here in the states.  You have no way of knowing what his costs were or what medication he eventually received.

You must be proud of yourself to be able to tear down brave young people with medical conditions whose opinions differ from your own.

Very nice.

Erika: Neither of us know the true nature of his condition. Here’s what we do know:

1) He got sick in England.

2) Despite being a foreign national - he got treatment.

3) He went on to complain about it at a teabagging event.

That’s not bravery - that ingratitude. And where I’m from, ingratitude is low-class.

Also, I _seriously_ doubt he was prevented from going to an emergency room while in the UK. Like the US, emergency rooms treat everyone who walks in the door - the major difference being that here his parents might have been bankrupted by the bill.

Frankly, if he was un/der/insured in the US he would have been fortunate to get any treatment at all.

The bottom line: The guy was privileged enough to study abroad, lucky enough to get treatment when sick, and selfish enough to advocate denying others healthcare in his own country.

Erika-The young man you refer to wasn’t “made to wait”. In England, he would still have had the choice to go to a private practitioner.

An “emergency room visit here in the states” would have cost him potentially thousands of dollars, maybe much more, and is certainly not a good way to advise anyone to utilize medical care in the US. It is a last-chance resort for many people, not a drop-in clinic. The treatment he would have eventually received in England would have cost him close to nothing.

There is nothing in any western nation’s health care plan (Europe, Canada) that requires one to see a government employed doctor. Every country still offers the option to seek out private care. The difference between this and the US “Plan” is one does not even have the option to seek the state care option (Unless you are a member of Congress).

Paul -V- 
1. You do not know what his citizenship status is, as he did not share that information with the crowd.  You are making baseless assumptions.
2. No mater where you are from, ad hominem attacks such as referring to people as “tea-baggers” is low class.
3. Whatever you do or do not “seriously doubt” really doesn’t matter.
4. You say “Emergency rooms treat everyone who walks in the door” and “if he was un/der/insured in the US he would have been fortunate to get any treatment at all”?  Okay… ???
5. You have no idea what the circumstances are that led him to study abroad, so to refer to him as “privileged” simply reveals your underlying class envy.

Better Health Care?
http://snipr.com/m8ryn

In England, health care is “free”—as long as you don’t mind waiting. People wait so long for dentist appointments that some pull their own teeth…

Erika:

1. Golly. You’re right - what with the perfect North-American dialect he might have been Canadian. Thanks for calling me out on that.

2. The Teabaggers named themselves. Don’t blame me for it.

http://tinyurl.com/c4ytdy

3. It doesn’t. I think he lied about it, but whatever. Neither of us can prove it either way.

4. Because many students are economically motivated to stay away from the emergency rooms due to medical bills. That isn’t a problem in the UK.

5. Neither do you. But let’s agree it’s a privilege to go to college abroad.

I don’t suffer from class envy, it’s class awareness. If you’d like, you can become class aware too!

First, pretend you have an asthma attack and you’re uninsured. Next - call your local emergency room and ask how much a visit would cost out-of-pocket.

Ask yourself honestly, can you afford it?

If not. Set your alarm for 4am - because you’re going to have to head to the free clinic, and if you’re not in line by 6am you probably won’t be able to see anyone that day.

Golly, I hope your asthma attack doesn’t get worse overnight.

Welcome to the world of the middle/poor classes. That feeling of desperation is called class awareness.

Good times, good times. :-)

Paul writes: “Ask yourself honestly, can you afford it?”

How much of that cost is attributable to government regulation of the health care industry?

Tim:

1) You don’t have any working examples of a privatized healthcare system that covers everyone effectively. So the best you can do is link to a RW article that references a two-year old story.

Bravo.

Any even if their still is a denist shortage in the UK, at least they don’t need RAMs

http://tinyurl.com/nlnow3

2) http://tinyurl.com/nes9cb

I heard that in Europe and Canada you actually have a “choice” to go to either a Government run health practitioner, or a private practitioner.

I dont know about you, but that sounds like more choices than we have in the USA.

So, what’s so bad about having more options, exactly?

No answer.

Tim:

*Sigh*

Fine. In answer to your question: “How much of that cost is attributable to government regulation of the health care industry?”

About 6%

http://www.ahipbelieves.com/health-care-costs.html

So in a libertarian paradise where their is zero govt regulation - a $2,000 emergency room visit now costs $1,880.

Yay!

In that ‘libertarian paradise’ poor people would die of simple diseases. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

In that libertarian paradise, poor people would thrive by virtue of a free market separated from government intervention in the economy.

P.S. I think there is a problem with Paul’s conclusion about the cost of government interference in the private sector.

- The (Tim Peck)

In England, health care is “free”—as long as you don’t mind waiting. People wait so long for dentist appointments that some pull their own teeth…

Great—a hardcore right-wing site that’s advertising Glenn Beck. That sure sells me on its unimpeachable veracity.

How surprising, and impressive.  You are impenetrable.

“About 6%”

hahahahahahahahahahaha
hooohahaha(snort)heh
oh my side hurts

“About 6%” says Paul and the DC based “unified voice for the health care financing industry.”  That’s rich.

Since when did progressives become so trusting of government?

You keep buying what they’re selling.  Caveat emptor.

Seeing that statistic of 6% being the cost of health care administration due to regulation made me cough up my drink.  I work in health care.  That number is complete BS. 

CMS - look it up if you don’t know who they are - controls almost every procedure in every process in medicine and insurance.  Then they price fix it with more numbers that make normal business people run for their lives.

I have no problem with the ‘public option’ as long as its funded with premiums and not the infinite gov’t teet.  That will be a very interesting comparison seeing if the Fed Gov’t can beat the private sector at something.  My bet is they can’t and it will be the most expensive experiment ever. 

Read my comments here for more enlightenment:

http://www.mountainx.com/news/2007/sen_hagan_visits_local_leaders_pitches_health_care_reform/

it appears as if there were quite a number of children there, clearly too young to have a clue as to what’s going on

Much the same, I’m certain, as the children liberals paraded around during the SCHIP debate.

by and large, this is all revisionism masking an anti-Obama agenda

Of course it’s an anti-Obama agenda movement. Why would you think otherwise and what difference does that make?

“P.S. I think there is a problem with Paul’s conclusion about the cost of government interference in the private sector.”

Yeah, i was surprised, too. But I could not find anything credible to refute it. Can you?

“Of course it’s an anti-Obama agenda movement. Why would you think otherwise and what difference does that make? “

Well that would really not make it the “bipartisan” movement it tries to style itself as, yes?

“In that libertarian paradise, poor people would thrive by virtue of a free market separated from government intervention in the economy.”

ahhh, so it’s government, and government alone that keeps people poor?

How surprising, and impressive.  You are impenetrable.

That’s actually reassuring, but my point is that this “war of the websites” approach is absurd in its pointlessness. Do you honestly think anyone of a liberal bent is going to accept something posted on an obviously right-wing-agenda-driven site at face value? Turn it around—would you accept something from an obviously left-wing-agenda-driven website as proof of anything?

Well that would really not make it the “bipartisan” movement it tries to style itself as, yes?

Not if you look at it in the context of people against the expansion of the government.
No matter what opinion you have of Obama’s policies you have to admit that they include the expansion of government.

“Of course it’s an anti-Obama agenda movement. Why would you think otherwise and what difference does that make?”

Why?  Because of all the lip service about ‘non-partisanship’.  Does it make a difference?  No, it makes no difference to me, nor (apparently) does the whole charade make any difference.  Does that answer your question? 

“Much the same, I’m certain, as the children liberals paraded around during the SCHIP debate.”

Says you. Got any pics of all of these little liberal tag-a-longs?

“Do you honestly think anyone of a liberal bent is going to accept something posted on an obviously right-wing-agenda-driven site at face value?”

I don’t expect that at all.  But there are some smart people who read these comments.

But there are some smart people who read these comments.

Exactly my point.

Analysis from 2004 shows that the total cost of health services regulation exceeds $339.2 billion. This figure takes into account regulation of health facilities, health professionals, health insurance, drugs and medical devices, and the medical tort system, including the costs of defensive medicine. Moreover, this approach allows for a calculation of some important tangible benefits of regulation. Yet even after subtracting $170.1 billion in benefits, the net burden of health services regulation is considerable, amounting to $169.1 billion annually. In other words, the costs of health services regulation outweigh benefits by two-to-one and cost the average household over $1,500 per year.

This does not account for the cost of mandated insurance, or professional accreditation and licensure, or rent-seeking as professional associations lobby for special favors, or additional state and municipal regulatatory costs. So these figures are not only dated but very incomplete.

Tim: [citation needed]

You also need to define “health services regulation”. I’m sure it costs money to obey a law that requires sterile equipment & best practices - that doesn’t make it an unnecessary expense.

1. Surely you’re not suggesting that the only thing that keeps professional doctors and nurses from using dirty utensils is government bureaucrats.

2. There is a difference between regulation and laws. Laws are necessary to protect individual rights. That is the proper function of government. Interfering in the economy of the private sector is not.

Says you. Got any pics of all of these little liberal tag-a-longs?

Graeme Frost. Google it.
Also, if you want links to numerous war protests and Bush Admin protests where children are dragged along, I’ll happily provide them. But I’d be willing to bet you believe me.

As far as bipartisanship, I’ll repost this since you apparently didn’t see it right above your response:

Not if you look at it in the context of people against the expansion of the government.
No matter what opinion you have of Obama’s policies you have to admit that they include the expansion of government.

I’m really not arguing that there weren’t plenty of wingnuts there that are total hypocrites and in some cases a bit nutty.
I just wish people would get beyond the accusations and actually argue the merits of their arguments.

“But I’d be willing to bet you believe me.”

Yes, I am willing to accept that, especially regarding, say, efforts towards SCHIP (the fact that the ‘c’ stands for children is a dead giveaway). 

What seems to be missing is any orchestrated demonstrations during the Bush years in reaction to the massive increase in government and the historical deficit he racked up, not the mention what are arguably attacks upon Constitutional freedoms.  Sure, there were anti-war demonstrations (mostly by the left and some libertarians), but none that I recall dealing with government expansion.

And I also agree that the federal government is continuing an expansionist reach, regardless of political party.  That is undeniable.

As for items of real concern, this is one that should concern people (especially in this area):

“HR 2749 is a strange bill in many ways.  While the other “food safety” bills have been around since winter, allowing for much public discussion on the internet, HR 2749 has only suddenly appeared.  It is a mutant conglomeration of the worst of the other bills, with the addition of one very original part – martial law…

HR 2749 would give FDA the power to order a quarantine of a geographic area, including “prohibiting or restricting the movement of food or of any vehicle being used or that has been used to transport or hold such food within the geographic area…

Under this provision, farmers markets and local food sources could be shut down, even if they are not the source of the contamination.  The agency can halt all movement of all food in a geographic area…

HR 2749 would empower FDA to regulate how crops are raised and harvested.  It puts the federal government right on the farm, dictating to our farmers….”

http://farmwars.info/?p=1145

Not if you look at it in the context of people against the expansion of the government.
No matter what opinion you have of Obama’s policies you have to admit that they include the expansion of government.

riiiiiiight. but since basically NONE of these folks were protesting the expansion of a War that was certainly involving the expansion of “big government”, it is hard for some of us ‘left wing’ types to be more than a bit suspicious as to the true underlying theme of these honkeyfests.

edit. “Not” be more than a bit suspicious.

Dionysis:

“But I’d be willing to bet you believe me.”

Yes, I am willing to accept that, especially regarding, say, efforts towards SCHIP (the fact that the ‘c’ stands for children is a dead giveaway).

Not to be rude, but your reading comprehension is terrible. I also made a comparison about trotting out children to protest the war, which if you have any sense you would find equally reprehensible.

Piffy:

but since basically NONE of these folks were protesting the expansion of a War that was certainly involving the expansion of “big government”, it is hard for some of us ‘left wing’ types to be more than a bit suspicious as to the true underlying theme of these honkeyfests.

Riiiiight. Which is why I said:

“I’m really not arguing that there weren’t plenty of wingnuts there that are total hypocrites and in some cases a bit nutty.
I just wish people would get beyond the accusations and actually argue the merits of their arguments.”

So why don’t you get past the “where were you for the past eight years” and argue against their assertions?

And “honkeyfest” is racist.

The crowd that started the Tea Party phenomenon WERE here screaming against the last 8 years. It’s simple-minded people who still buy into the “left-right” “Democrat-Republican” hoax that are really tipping their hand by regurgitating CNN’s juvenile talking point that the Tea Parties are racist.

PFKaP: Are the same people paying off Glenn Beck to co-opt this movement paying you to post such comments, or do you really approaching politics from a 5th grade emotional level?

“Not to be rude, but your reading comprehension is terrible. I also made a comparison about trotting out children to protest the war, which if you have any sense you would find equally reprehensible.”

Well, you are being rude and your flippancy is just as “terrible.”  I did comment on your extraneous point about anti-war demonstrations, and ‘no’, I do not find anti-war demonstrations, with or without kids, as reprehensible (particularly over an illegal, non-declared ‘war’ caused by lying ideologues) as a bunch of yahoos running around full of outrage over a whole smorgasbord of “issues” that have been coming a long time from various administrations trying to vilify the current president, all of this ‘Marxist’/Socialist blather and Obama as Hitler tee-shirts and the like.

That’s my opinion which I’ll maintain; feel free to do the same.

I am completely sick of several asking the Tea Partiers where they were for the past 8 years.  Although there may be some who did not object to Bush’s big government leanings, this lack of objection is a poor excuse for Obama’s massive increase in government spending and government control of the economy.

It is a “tu quoque” logical fallacy, attempting to justify one’s own behavior by saying “you do it too.”

If Obama’s policies are justifiable, then Obama’s supporters should argue the policies on their merits rather than resorting to childish finger-pointing.

“The crowd that started the Tea Party phenomenon WERE here screaming against the last 8 years.”

Perhaps so, but I don’t recall (nor can find any evidence of) any such organized gripe-fests conducted during the Bush years.  Can you factually refute this perception?  If so, please do.

Oh, and I personally don’t find these ‘tea parties’ particularly racist, although there are clearly hard-core racists among the crowd. 

Oh, and by the way, please don’t offer a link to another rambling, self-serving diatribe by Alex Jones.  Thanks.

“If Obama’s policies are justifiable, then Obama’s supporters should argue the policies on their merits rather than resorting to childish finger-pointing.”

That is a completely valid point.  Now, how about being less selective and look at how many of those opposed to Obama’s policies, or who are trying to defend it when conservatives are caught doing something wrong (i.e. Mark Sanford, etc.) do exactly what you chide his supporters for doing, namely, using the ‘waaaa, they did this and that so quite picking on (fill in the blank).  It’s apparent in postings here, and it’s easy to find the same thing in virtually every website (or newspaper letters) where political discussion occurs.

@ Brian: The Obama crowd explains the merits of his policies all the time. You can read volumes of literature on the potential benefits of universal healthcare, stimulus spending, and banking reform.

You don’t have to agree with it; but it’s there for the asking.

You are correct that “tu quoque” is a logical fallacy. However, the reason it’s being brought up isn’t to refute Teabagger arguments. It’s done to remind thinking people that conservatives have _zero_ credibility on the issues they claim to care about.

From healthcare, to torture, to spending, to foreign policy, to economics, to respecting the constitution, to human rights, to energy planning, to emergency preparedness, to environmental protection - Republicans have a track-record of utter failure.

Are Obama’s policies wrong for America? That remains to be seen. Here’s what we do know: Modern Republicans have proven they cannot be trusted. Modern libertarians have yet to provide a single working example of their policies actually working. Modern fundamentalists have demonstrated a desire to exclude everyone who disagrees with their narrow views.

In this context, observing these groups re-brand themselves under the “Teabag” label, and then claim to be a non-partisan group fighting against irresponsible, unresponsive government - is like watching a group of drunk alcoholics insist nobody else should ingest alcohol.

The Teabaggers have earned their “hypocrite” label. If nothing else, they’ll just have to learn how to live with it.

Paul V must be a house painter.  He can paint with a broad brush with the best of em.

Paul you criticize the partisanship of the Tea Party stating that “In this context, observing these groups re-brand themselves under the “Teabag” label, and then claim to be a non-partisan group fighting against irresponsible, unresponsive government - is like watching a group of drunk alcoholics insist nobody else should ingest alcohol”

This argument is a copout, an ad hominem argument meant to distract from the arguments presented against Obama’s policies. Blind partisanship that casts aside principle is corrosive in politics at all levels.  However, genuine philosophical differences on various issues is not partisanship.

Well, you are being rude and your flippancy is just as “terrible.”  I did comment on your extraneous point about anti-war demonstrations, and ‘no’, I do not find anti-war demonstrations, with or without kids, as reprehensible (particularly over an illegal, non-declared ‘war’ caused by lying ideologues) as a bunch of yahoos running around full of outrage over a whole smorgasbord of “issues” that have been coming a long time from various administrations trying to vilify the current president, all of this ‘Marxist’/Socialist blather and Obama as Hitler tee-shirts and the like.

This is why you’re being hypocritical.
You object to the Tea Party protesters bringing out kids but you have no problem with the anti-Bush crowd having done the same. You also bemoan the protesters casting Obama as a Marxist or as Hitler, but did you object when Bush was portrayed as Hitler? I bet not.
This is where you say “But Bush was like Hitler”.

This is the problem with you hyper-partisans. You have no concept of what your own side is doing.
The only purpose you serve is to demonize your opponents.

“I’m really not arguing that there weren’t plenty of wingnuts there that are total hypocrites and in some cases a bit nutty.
I just wish people would get beyond the accusations and actually argue the merits of their arguments.”

So why don’t you get past the “where were you for the past eight years” and argue against their assertions?

Oh, please. You say that, but you and I know thse Tea Parties are Highly partisan. On paper, their cause is noble-in practice it is just a way for the rural right to attempt to simplify the problem into a partisan context their simple minds can comprehend. Again, the “War on terror” is bankrupting our economy. That started a long time ago.

so, what exactly are ‘their assertions’ that i should argue? That the current administration is completely at fault for problems seeded years ago?
That what we need to do is stop paying taxes? That Obama is a “socialist”? These are all assertions of the tea baggers. would you really ‘defend’ them?

And “honkeyfest” is racist.

Nope. it’s bigoted, maybe, but since i am a working-class ‘white’, it is barely even that. more like a joke. You over-sensitive wanna-be Honkey.

Why are people even responding to an acronym?

This is why you’re being hypocritical.
You object to the Tea Party protesters bringing out kids but you have no problem with the anti-Bush crowd having done the same.

really? you have proof of that? or are you just making the same assumptions you just ranted about yourself?

From what I can tell, it is you who cant get past his assumptions and preconceived notions to see these “tea parties” as the blowhard distractions for the uneducated that they really are.

Please, list me some of the positive actions and ideas that have come from these golrious tea parties, bob.

PFKaP: Are the same people paying off Glenn Beck to co-opt this movement paying you to post such comments, or do you really approaching politics from a 5th grade emotional level?

Ahh, so, despite my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE at two different ‘tea parties’ on opposite sides of the country, i’m just repeating what i’ve heard on CNN?

And by relating my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE at these “tea parties”, I am somehow a ‘juvenile democratic apologist”? Thats truly funny.

In my “Personal Experience”, I’ve talked to folsk at tea parties who claim Obama is a socialist, heard speeches from members of the South Carolina Republican party that place the blame on Clinton, and heard people claim Obama is a “nazi”.

yes, i must be so misled. please enlgihten me.

Please, since I’ve missed them, can you recap some of the speeches that have criticized Republican over-spending?

Oh, wow, i see they are against the use of ‘foreign troops on our soil against citizens.’ Wow. What a revolutionary stand.

I was unaware that was an option being presented.

Of course, BUSH passed NSPD/51, but since that only authorizes the use of National Guard troops against Us citizens, I guess these folks werent too worried.

Why are people even responding to an acronym?

the same reason you dont/can’t. because i make valid, informed points, based on verifiable fact, that is relevant to the discussion. you know, unlike yourself.

@ umbarger

genuine philosophical differences on various issues is not partisanship.

That’s just it. Considering their hypocrisy - thinking people have a great deal of trouble believing Teabaggers have genuine philosophical differences that are based on anything other than willful ignorance, or blind fear.

Compare this peace-activists; who still protest in front of the Vance Monument weekly despite the election of a Democrat. You might not agree with them, but they’ve demonstrated genuine, consistent values - regardless of which party controls the levers of power.

uh huh.

really? you have proof of that?

You’re not serious. Do you really doubt that over the past eight years that there were numerous children involved in the anti-Bush protests? You’re being intentionally obtuse.

From what I can tell, it is you who cant get past his assumptions and preconceived notions to see these “tea parties” as the blowhard distractions for the uneducated that they really are.

Nuh-uh, it is you.
Kindly tell me what assumptions and preconceived notions I have. That Dionysis is a liberal who despises conservatives? That you believe basically every single tea party participant is a racist and bigot? Because both of these are true.

And I’m no wanna-be honkey, dude. I’m totally Wonder Bread. (I’m not overly sensitive, I was joking about the racist thing. Sorry the sarcasm didn’t come through)

what exactly are ‘their assertions’ that i should argue?

Something aside from the straw man arguments you and others have been using thus far.

@PFKaP In response to your statement as follows: “so, what exactly are ‘their assertions’ that i should argue? That the current administration is completely at fault for problems seeded years ago?
That what we need to do is stop paying taxes? That Obama is a “socialist”? These are all assertions of the tea baggers. would you really ‘defend’ them?”

Here are the assertions that you should argue:

These are our grievances against the U.S. Federal Government:

It has used public money and debasement of our currency to subsidize private businesses and corporations, thus creating the beginnings of corporate welfare fascist state.

It has abdicated the responsibility of maintaining a sound currency by illegally turning this authority over to a private bank, known as The Federal Reserve, and has also shielded it from public and even government oversight.

It has recklessly created a massive national debt with no ability to repay it—this debt will result in the destruction of the currency and all private savings along with it.

It has created a system of taxation that invades individual privacy, punishes success, rewards sloth, and promotes a runaway federal bureaucracy which is eating out our economic substance.

It has failed to restrict itself to the limited and enumerated powers delegated to it by the U.S. Constitution as the Founders and Framers intended.  In doing so it has usurped the sovereignty of the States and the Rights of the people.

It has failed to honor the unalienable Rights of the individual by passing acts that usurp these Rights which are protected and guaranteed in the Bill of Rights.  These usurpations include: restricted Freedom of Speech, the Right to Habeas Corpus, the Right to be Secure in our Person, the Right to Self-Defense, the Right to Privacy, the Right to Free Trade & Travel, the Right to a Fair and Balanced Election System, and the Right to Petition for Redress of Grievances.

It has imperiled our armed services, our treasury and our national security to various un-Constitutional wars, based on deception and intrigue, and designed without regard to reasonable victory conditions.  It has been warned of “foreign entanglements” and the threat of a “military industrial complex” by past U.S. administrations dating back to America’s origin, yet it squanders our blood and treasure in dreams of empire building and globalist agendas.

It has trespassed upon the very sovereignty of this great nation by following the dictates of the international bodies like the United Nations and other extra-national organizations.  It has established guidelines and has made un-Constitutional agreements to proceed with what may become a North American Union between Canada, U.S., and Mexico.  This new union would subordinate our nation and its governance to a foreign legal jurisdiction.

It has usurped the authority of parents within the American family through a federally controlled Public Education system that continues to enact legislative mandates which usurp the sovereignty of the States, and ultimately the sovereignty of the people, and minimize Education Freedom.

It has continued in its attempts to control all aspects of Health Freedom, including general health care, medical care, and food and drug regulations.  In many such cases, it has served to decrease the quality of American health through such measures.

@Paul V - “Considering their hypocrisy - thinking people have a great deal of trouble believing Teabaggers have genuine philosophical differences that are based on anything other than willful ignorance, or blind fear.”

Again, your argument is a genetic fallacy.  To believe that the philosophical position is incorrect based upon the origin of the position fails to assess the point all together. 

“Compare this peace-activists; who still protest in front of the Vance Monument weekly despite the election of a Democrat. You might not agree with them, but they’ve demonstrated genuine, consistent values - regardless of which party controls the levers of power.”

Two parts to this.  First, the peace activists protesting in front of Vance Monument have demonstrated genuine, consistent values, you are correct.  However, your attempt to compare to the Tea Party movement is a false analogy.  Because the peace activists have demonstrated these genuine, consistent values under both Republican and Democratic presidents, does not prove anything about the Tea Party Movement.

PK and Paul are clearly in the throws of a highly acute bout of Bush Derangement Syndrome.  Its a cloud so thick, everything they think about has to be framed in that context.  Using current context is impossible.  Fox bashing will come next.

Can it be that they don’t really know who the President of the United States is?

Fox bashing will come next

Why would anyone want to bash a harmless, innocent little fox? Unless, or course, they were wanting to make/sell fur coat(s).

Can it be that they don’t really know who the President of the United States is?

Don’t be silly, everyone knows that the current president is the Antichrist.

I, for one, and sick of tired of taxes. I mean, paying for the biggest military in the world is one thing, but trying to stimulate a broekn economy?!?! thats just too much!  Obama has obviously ruined this country! Just look, he’s only been in office less than 7 months and already we have had a swine flu outbreak. Totally, entirely the fault of Democrats. Anyone who tries to imply the republicans share equal blame is obviously an obbomunist unable to see the present without looking at the past for pesky context.

umbarger-if that is indeed your gripe against the Fed than you and i have a lot in common. Unfortuantely, i didnt run into anyone who had that sort of analysis at the two tea parties i have attended. All i heard was about how Obama is a Socialist. Dont you think that sort of talk, from diehard rightwinger would turn you off a bit, too?

Is there maybe, just maybe, a good reason beyond partisanship that these rallies are so easily characterized as rural racists? In my own personal experience, i have to say yes. I’m glad your experiecne was so different, although i’m a bit confused how it could be so…

Individualism in America
Tim Peck | Asheville Independence Day Tea Party | July 4, 2009
http://snipr.com/me8tq

America has not always existed. I don’t mean so much America the nation, but America the idea.

@PKFaP - this is indeed my gripe against the Fed, although that was a copy and paste job from the speech given at the Asheville Independence Day Tea Party by Bernard Baruch Carman and Gary Shoemaker.  Here is the speech in it’s entirety.  I will have video of the speech posted by tomorrow.

The Asheville Tea Party Declaration of Independence
Independence Day Tea Party, Asheville, NC
July 4, 2009

WHEN in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to enforce the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal position to which the laws of nature and of nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the mandate.

We the People of the United States of America hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  That, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

That, whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience has shown that mankind is more inclined to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.  But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same goal, gives evidence of a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government and to provide new guards for their future security.

Such has been the patient sufferance of We the People of the United States of America; and such is now the necessity which compels them to alter their current system of government irresponsibility, unaccountability, and despotism.

These are our grievances against the U.S. Federal Government:
It has used public money and debasement of our currency to subsidize private businesses and corporations, thus creating the beginnings of corporate welfare fascist state.

It has abdicated the responsibility of maintaining a sound currency by illegally turning this authority over to a private bank, known as The Federal Reserve, and has also shielded it from public and even government oversight.

It has recklessly created a massive national debt with no ability to repay it—this debt will result in the destruction of the currency and all private savings along with it.

It has created a system of taxation that invades individual privacy, punishes success, rewards sloth, and promotes a runaway federal bureaucracy which is eating out our economic substance.

It has failed to restrict itself to the limited and enumerated powers delegated to it by the U.S. Constitution as the Founders and Framers intended.  In doing so it has usurped the sovereignty of the States and the Rights of the people.

It has failed to honor the unalienable Rights of the individual by passing acts that usurp these Rights which are protected and guaranteed in the Bill of Rights.  These usurpations include: restricted Freedom of Speech, the Right to Habeas Corpus, the Right to be Secure in our Person, the Right to Self-Defense, the Right to Privacy, the Right to Free Trade & Travel, the Right to a Fair and Balanced Election System, and the Right to Petition for Redress of Grievances.

It has imperiled our armed services, our treasury and our national security to various un-Constitutional wars, based on deception and intrigue, and designed without regard to reasonable victory conditions.  It has been warned of “foreign entanglements” and the threat of a “military industrial complex” by past U.S. administrations dating back to America’s origin, yet it squanders our blood and treasure in dreams of empire building and globalist agendas.

It has trespassed upon the very sovereignty of this great nation by following the dictates of the international bodies like the United Nations and other extra-national organizations.  It has established guidelines and has made un-Constitutional agreements to proceed with what may become a North American Union between Canada, U.S., and Mexico.  This new union would subordinate our nation and its governance to a foreign legal jurisdiction.

It has usurped the authority of parents within the American family through a federally controlled Public Education system that continues to enact legislative mandates which usurp the sovereignty of the States, and ultimately the sovereignty of the people, and minimize Education Freedom.

It has continued in its attempts to control all aspects of Health Freedom, including general health care, medical care, and food and drug regulations.  In many such cases, it has served to decrease the quality of American health through such measures.

In every stage of these oppressions, We the People of the United States of America have petitioned for redress in the most humble terms; our repeated petitions have been answered only by repeated injury.  A government claiming to govern a “land of the free” whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a tyrant is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Therefore, We the People of the United States of America RE-Declare our Independence from tyranny and oppression of the enemies of the Constitution, both foreign and domestic; and that, as free and independent people, we have full power to demand this U.S. Federal Government be limited by the rule of law, that is the U.S. Constitution.

And for the support of this re-declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.

LET FREEDOM RING!

Barack Obama is not a socialist; he is a Marxist.

@PFKaP
“All i heard was about how Obama is a Socialist. Dont you think that sort of talk, from diehard rightwinger would turn you off a bit, too?”

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that you were getting turned off by the statement because many people have spouted the “Obama is a Socialist” statement without the knowledge of why they make that claim or what they are even saying.  They are simply repeating what they heard Rush or Sean Hannity say. In this context, I too would be turned off by the statement (regardless of the political ideology of the person) because they were only utilizing it to attack a person, not an idea or policy.

If we do indeed have a lot in common with these gripes against the Federal government, then why not help some of the Asheville Tea Party organizers plan these events or get involved in some way?  Doing this would ensure that your own views are represented thereby keeping the movement about the issues and preventing it from turning into unjustified attacks President Obama and his administration.

Aside from FDR, no President has increased the role of the Federal Gov’t like Obama has this year ... and he’s only a few months in.  I’m not ready to assign a label yet, but if he keeps up this pace for his whole term, he will be a Marxist.

I think though, he is only going to have until 2010.  W made so many Republican’s mad, they didn’t vote in the last election.  I guarantee they will show up in force in 2010.  The Democrats better be ready.  I would welcome some gridlock right about now.

If Paul-v- and PFKaP will sign a binding contract and they think that UK is so much better, I will raise the money to purchase a one-way ticket there for them if they agree to stay.

Tim you are correct because so many people just blabber on these post without any knowledge.

I honestly wish the Mt Xpress would require complete names and IP address plus contact information before posting.  Get some of the cowards out in the open.

Sorry Unbarger most people that say they want freedom only want their brand of freedom.  I have been pushing for open books and transparency ever since 200O and very few so called “liberals” have joined but there is hope as one person in the last election had an obama and Don Yelton sigh side by side in their yard in West Asheville. 

There is some light in a few of the members of URTV also.  They too want openess there in spite of all of the comments about the Mt. Xpress.

We must just keep on keeping on.  Thanks to all that showed up at the tea party.

And here I thought that no one in their right mind could possibly take John Stossel even remotely seriously. Actually, I suppose I was right.

The only thing more ridiculous than taking John Stossel seriously is the ridiculously McCarthyesque, astonishingly naive claim that Obama is a Marxist. You don’t have to like Obama, but to call him a Marxist just shows a complete ignorance of the fundamental tenets of Marxism. It is exactly that kind of ludicrously ignorant right-wing extremist claptrap that will forever guarantee that the tea parties are little more than a marginalized group of fringe nuts.

I’m very pro-tea party because the more the right wing gets bogged down with the ultra-right extremist fringe nonsense the better because it will guarantee that they continue to lose influence, but it’s still nice to see that the tea parties have been falling flat across the nation: http://washingtonindependent.com/49616/tea-party-movement-loses-steam

Ent - why don’t you compare and contrast Obama and Marxism so we’ll all know for sure.

Tea Parties losing steam:
http://912dc.org/

Is the adage “you have to spend money to make money true for govt’s”?
We need to take care of our deficit and we need a strong currency.  I have no problems investing in our future.
  The repubs lost because they are lost and now we have decided to try someone else.
  Can one of you teabaggers show me the number of how much the fed spent say two years ago and how much Obama wants to spend?  What is this number that is making you all so offended?
  Also, specifically which of his policies (don’t even mention health care, how can you go socialist while creating more options?) are more socialist than what has been happening?  I read news posts but don’t really see any major changes in how our govt operates.  thanks

Obama is taxing me to death!

http://costofwar.com/

wait, the iraq war is his fault, right?

“Can one of you teabaggers show me the number…”

I guess not a-hole.

Personally, I think the tea party protesters should dress up like half-naked Native Americans (possibly with war paint) just like back in the day. This might even be a civilized step up for some of the gun-toting Rednecks intermingling among the crowds. That would get my attention, plus, it would help to demonstrate that conservatives are capable of being a little creative. It’s a win/win situation.

umbarger-i hear your point about ‘getting involved’, but my ‘protest’ days are long over. visiting these rallies was the closest ive been to one since 99.

I guess not a-hole.

Well, I’m glad to see we are all being so mature. I’m curious how many civil, courteous adults who share a similar political point of view (like umbarger) are ashamed to be associated with you. It’s a good thing I try to avoid stereotyping (outside of my obviously tongue-in-cheek nature, of course).

“Personally, I think the tea party protesters should dress up”

Well, folks, you Obamatons and anonymous cowards have obviously run out of material. A rational discourse would have been much more interesting.

This correspondence has run its course.

[END OF BABYSITTING]

Here are two photos from the Teabag protest I took that demonstrate how peaceful and non-partisan the teabaggers were.

1) Coward with a threatening sign. I say “coward” because he made sure his face was covered when I took the picture. (This guy got a lot of thumbs-up and handshakes of approval from the crowd.)

2) A nice, non-partisan fundamentalist, telling people about the connection between Obama and SATAN!!!

Tim, I don’t know what to make of your response.  Are you calling me an asshole?  That would be messed up considering I have never harmed you or spoken ill of you. 
My curiosity was neither feigned nor sarcastic. 
The are so many numbers flying around, I thought someone might have an idea…...that’s all…

A rational discourse would have been much more interesting.

some of us have been having just that. But for you, ‘rational’ does not appear possible.

maybe if you had a job that paid better than babysitting you wouldnt be so huffy….

and please note, everyone, how timpeck makes the insinuation that anyone who doesnt agree with him is an “obamaton”. Rational and mature, indeed.

paul-did you ask him what he would do with that ‘gun’ if he brought it? maybe shoot some taxes?

@ The (PFKaP)

No. But if he was capable of rational, self-reflection - this is the kind of conversation we might have had:

http://www.partiallyclips.com/index.php?id=1614

Tea Party Protesters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJk52ylI3wU&

Here are a few helpful pointers if right-wing extremists want to be taken seriously, instead of as little more than cartoonish amusement…

1.  Stop meeting in publicly funded parks to whine about public funding if you want to be taken seriously. The hypocritical irony is just too much to bear.

2. If you call Obama a Marxist, you sacrifice the privilege of ever being taken seriously again. To spout off such ignorant, ludicrously McCarthyesque nonsense guarantees that you can never be taken seriously.

3. When you use terms like Obamatrons and Barrybots, it is next to impossible to take you seriously.

4. If you spout insanely bigoted theories about Obama’s birth certificate or how you think he is the antichrist, you certainly can not be taken seriously.

5. And finally, whatever you do, don’t couch your rhetoric in the fictitious ramblings of a quasi-intellectual social Darwinist such as Ayn Rand if you ever hope to be taken seriously.

As far as tea party attire goes, personally I think the teabaggers should go for a more traditional look; flower print dresses, white gloves, and oversized faux pearl necklaces would complete the look. And it’s just not a tea party without little buttered cucumber sandwiches with the crusts cut off and scones with clotted cream.

Well, folks, you Obamatons and anonymous cowards have obviously run out of material

First of all, while it may be fair to make assumptions to a certain extent, it is worth noting that I never specifically mentioned my political standing. Furthermore, why are you so fixated on attacking people’s usernames when they don’t agree with you? How is THAT relevant to a political debate? How does this make me, or anyone else, a coward? I’m not hiding behind a creative username. I don’t post comments saying anything that I would not otherwise say in a face to face conversation with another individual. Now, if I was under the presumption that the person I was talking with was not capable of appreciating humor, and quick to anger if anyone disagreed with him, then it is fair to say that I would be a little more reserved than normal. But it’s also fair to say that I try to avoid associating with people of this nature.

Do you not find name calling to be childish and immature? If not, then I suppose that there is no need for me to resist my inner adolescent urge to suggest that you change your username to Tim Peck(er).

This correspondence has run its course.

If my playful sarcasm has truly managed to put an end to your obtuse ramblings, and annoying posts of links to sites like ‘snipr.com’, etc…, then I take pride in my unintended achievement.

p.s. You are the single worst babysitter that I have ever had.

Also, Mr. Peck, I genuinely hope that you understand that my statement about dressing up like Native Americans was a historical reference. Please tell me you caught that.

“Furthermore, why are you so fixated on attacking people’s usernames when they don’t agree with you? How is THAT relevant to a political debate? How does this make me, or anyone else, a coward?”

Indeed.

“Do you not find name calling to be childish and immature? If not, then I suppose that there is no need for me to resist my inner adolescent urge to suggest that you change your username to Tim Peck(er).”

An excellent as always little piece by Bob Cesca on the fizzling tea parties and the healthcare issue: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/if-you-dont-want-the-publ_b_228324.html?page=13&show_comment_id=26832319#comment_26832319

It seems to me the “tea baggers” have approprietly named themselves.
They most certainly are short-sighted & let’s face it unpatriotic. They somehow forgot or otherwise ignored the ill effects of Herr bushishito,etc who mounted the greatest direct attack on OUR Constitution ever conceived. As I have stated many times: no terrorist ever attacked OUR Constitution, bush, etc did. But yet the “tea-baggers” were nowhere to be seen or heard while bush used OUR constitution as toilet paper. Traitors to the cause of Liberty they are.

Calling Obama a Marxist at this point is an over reaction.  Its almost as kooky as the left wing extremists that keep harping on Bush’s ‘illegal’ war or those that call anyone with any conservative leanings a ‘right wing extremist’.

they done took mah possum an give it to the publicks

Jeebus! Let’s end this thread, and just agree these kittens are adorable.

those that call anyone with any conservative leanings a ‘right wing extremist’.

I’d be happy just to see one person who calls himself “middle of the road” (a favorite claim of Cullen A.‘s alter egos) actually say a single thing that isn’t out of the conservative handbook.

John calls us left wing extremists in the same breath that he whines about the term right-wing extremists. Now that’s just too rich.

Calling Obama a Marxist isn’t an overreaction, it is factually wrong and in is in fact completely ignorant of the basic tenets of Marxism.

Bush’s war was illegal. There were no weapons of mass destruction and that means that we invaded a sovereign nation without justifiable cause. That is against international law. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that speaking the truth makes one an extremist to those on the far right.

Cletus, that’s the best and most effective use of the “speech balloon” posting theme I’ve yet seen. Kudos to you, slack-jawed yokel or no.

Ent - Who ruled the war illegal?  Left wing extremists?

You keep missing the sarcasm/satire that gets lobbed your way.  Taking things so seriously all the time will make you grow old fast.

I guess when you exist on the left terminus, everything else is to the right.

Really? I miss your sarcasm? Are you sure? Studies have shown that right wingers don’t understand sarcasm. For real. It is not just some wacky coincidence that every great comedian in history has been a liberal. 

Yeah, that’s my problem; I’m just too serious.

As for your question, it is illegal to invade a sovereign nation unless there is an imminent threat. History has shown that the imminent threat was manufactured, not real, which makes the Iraq war illegal, no matter how you slice it.

Really? I miss your sarcasm? Are you sure? Studies have shown that right wingers don’t understand sarcasm. For real. It is not just some wacky coincidence that every great comedian in history has been a liberal.  Right wingers are about as funny as a box of mud.

Yeah, that’s my problem; I’m just too serious.

As for your question, it is illegal to invade a sovereign nation unless there is an imminent threat. History has shown that the imminent threat was manufactured, not real, which makes the Iraq war illegal, no matter how you slice it.

more intelligent discourse from the Tea Party Folks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNQUA0bI5b0

I guess when you exist on the left terminus, everything else is to the right.

Actually, I know I’m on the left. What frightens me is that there are a lot of hardcore right-wingers out there who honestly believe they are middle-of-the-road.

John-Who ruled the war illegal?  Left wing extremists?

Well, i guess former UN Head Kofi Annan was probably a radical in your book. Hell, the entire UN, of which the US is a willing participant, is probably ‘left wing’ in your book.

Of course, that makes you a ‘right wing extremist’ for not believing in Law, so…

I definitely think more right-wing extremists should situate themselves in middle of the road. Preferably during rush hour.

Enty ...you win the all time award for missing sarcasm and taking things personally.  You are the Tiger Woods of those abilities.

Nothing like a good protest…  everyone involved leaves with a nice smug sense of self-importance… and nothing is accomplished.

“John-Who ruled the war illegal?  Left wing extremists?

Well, i guess former UN Head Kofi Annan was probably a radical in your book. Hell, the entire UN, of which the US is a willing participant, is probably ‘left wing’ in your book.

Of course, that makes you a ‘right wing extremist’ for not believing in Law, so… “

I don’t remember submitting that ... unless I was talking to myself and now can’t remember.

The UN ruled nothing.  Just because Kofi said so means nothing.  Nice try.

John, if only I could take you seriously, but that promethean task would stretch my super-abilities that you are so fond of far beyond their elasticity. Amazingly, you attack people personally nonstop, and then whine about people taking things personally. It truly is cartoonish. What on Earth it is that makes you think that I miss your flailing attempts at sarcasm remains a mystery. I understand your attempts at humor just fine, excruciatingly lame though they may be.

Of course, this study showing that conservatives lack the ability to understand sarcasm may explain a lot in this case: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/rationally-speaking/200905/conservatives-lack-sense-humor-study-finds

Ent - you prove my point without me having to.

C’mon John, what’s the matter, can’t you detect sarcasm? Why do you have to take it so personally? You are the Tiger Woods of those abilities. Oh wait, deja-vu… bwaaaahahahaha.